What's up with everybody naming ToA with meddling mage? What's there to prevent them from just getting a bounce after going wild with AN and casting tendrils after?
I'd rather put it on duress, followed by chant followed by sandbagging all my counters while curbstomping him with 2/2 mages.
Hello friend.
I tend to name their tutors, like Infernal Tutor, Mystical Tutor or Burning Wish. Shutting down tutors works well in 2 ways. First, it prevents them from using the tutor to combo, making it harder to go off. Second, it defeats the purpose for them to use a tutor to find a bounce/removal spell for it. It's just another annoyance to their combo'ing, which buys you time, until you can establish more control, or simply win the game with aggro beats.
That's just how I play it, though. I have both MM and CBT postboard vs combo, so I'm already at overkill.
Hanni, have you considered Jace as carddraw? With 4 Top, 4 BS and 8 fetchlands he should be better than Fact or Fiction. In addition his manacosts of 3 are not too bad for Counterbalance (you said the cc of Fact or Fiction were a reason not to play this card in your build). I played him for a long time in Landstill and against some decks he was a very good win condition (against AngelStax for example) which saved me many games. Or is that additional card draw really not needed?
I ran 4x MM, 2x runed halo and 3x ethersworn canonist for a while which was fun :)Originally Posted by Hanni
Hello friend.
I did consider running Jace in my sideboad a while back, to bring in to replace Standstill against decks like Dreadstill and Merfolk. In the end, I just didn't feel it was worth it. You don't really wanna lower your 2cc curve against Dreadstill, so your typically bringing in Meddling Mage in place of Standstill. Still decent against Merfolk, but that makes it so narrow that there are better sideboard options (like Path to Exile).Hanni, have you considered Jace as carddraw? With 4 Top, 4 BS and 8 fetchlands he should be better than Fact or Fiction. In addition his manacosts of 3 are not too bad for Counterbalance (you said the cc of Fact or Fiction were a reason not to play this card in your build). I played him for a long time in Landstill and against some decks he was a very good win condition (against AngelStax for example) which saved me many games. Or is that additional card draw really not needed?
With so few 3cc spells in the deck, adding 1 more doesn't give the deck a consistent enough 3 drop slot for Counterbalance, so it's not even worth it as far as the Counterbalance curve goes.
I suppose you could drop 1 Standstill for 1 Jace in the maindeck, especially if you plan on playing Vial heavy metagames, so I suppose it's worth testing. Typically though, Counterbalance already generates enough card advantage alonside everything else that it's not really needed.
That just seems like redundant/narrow overkill though. With CBT/Mage, you've got versatile answers to more than just combo. Runed Halo is versatile too, but I couldn't see myself bringing in Ethersworn for any other matchup besides combo.I ran 4x MM, 2x runed halo and 3x ethersworn canonist for a while which was fun :)
That's why I don't run it anymore, but it was fun whenever it faced combo :D
Hello friend.
I dont think that we will have to devote too much sb to combo here in the near future. With the rule changes in m10 and mindbreak trap in zen. It seems to me that wizards has just hosed combo.
Thats not true and The track is only TRULY usefull if you already have the answer for chant and or duress.
I do this for several reasons when I'm playing against TES:
- Naming Tendrils means they will almost always have to answer it before going off. If you name a tutor, they still will have six other ways to find Tendrils, and they could also cantrip into it or draw into it. I can't counter Tendrils, but I can stop the tutors. I have eight counters main, and after sideboard I have ten that can counter Burning Wish, (Blue Blasts) and nine that can counter Mystical Tutor (Extirpate). I'd rather not take my chances and name a card they might not have in hand and not necessarily need to win instead of naming their win-condition.
- I feel naming Ad Nauseum is unnecessary, since and early Meddling Mage and just a single Mishra's Factory can weaken it tremendously. This plus counter-magic and Wastelands can put them under a lot of pressure and force them to go off before they want to. Also, since Mage attacking weakens ADN it decreases the chances of them drawing enough cards to make Grapeshot lethal.
I don't think game one is very good against TES, but if you mulligan aggressively games two and three it's very winnable.
"Attack with Order of the Ebon Hand."
"K, block with Jotun Grunt?"
"It has pro white."
"Swords?"
"It still has pro white."
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Updated list:
Code:// Lands 1 [B] Underground Sea 1 [B] Scrubland 4 [ON] Flooded Strand 4 [B] Tundra 3 [GUR] Island 3 [GUR] Plains 3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory 1 [TSP] Academy Ruins 1 [MM] Dust Bowl 1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats 1 [ON] Polluted Delta // Creatures 2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant // Spells 3 [SC] Decree of Justice 1 [TE] Humility 4 [AL] Force of Will 2 [JU] Cunning Wish 3 [FNM] Brainstorm 4 [DIS] Spell Snare 3 [OD] Standstill 3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top 4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives 2 [B] Wrath of God 1 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk 2 [FNM] Counterspell 1 [CFX] Path to Exile // Sideboard SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds SB: 1 [OD] Ray of Distortion SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
Only 2 black producing lands and only 2 ways to fetch them? What about 3-2-1 strand/flats/delta? Less randomness.
I'm using 3-2-1 at least and I run 2 black duals and a basic swamp.
Hello friend.
Are you aware that Strand gets Sea and Scrubland? I agree on Moss' colored manabase.
Moss, did you test with 3 Elspeths? You should try it, so far it has been great for me. (I run 3 Elspeth and 1 Decree, netto gaining 1 slot).
DCI L1 Judge, admin of www.BeNeLegacy.nl and member of Team Nijmegen (T.N.T.=Team Nijmegen Tendrils).
Since Elspeth rarely(read:never) dies, is three really necessary?
I only have 2 signed-simchin, please donīt go up to three :D
DCI: 68 10 43 34
I have been good with running 2. Not sure what the new Hexmage will do to Planeswalkers (and other related counter-based permanents) though.
I won't be worried about that 'till Zoo stops being played. Hexmage requires a very devoted black manabase and aggro-control shell, which means a bye for zoo every time it gets played. Goblins is getting a power boost, so Zoo will gain popularity in order to combat it. Black disruption.dec loses to both of these options, and even the next deck in the cycle (combo gaining popularity to combat aggro) isn't an easy matchup for decks like that. if it does, run a list with 4x spell snare and maybe divert in the SB. Alongside SDT, this deck is brutal against black aggro-control. We might lose one or two elspeths in the random match we should win anyway, but I really don't see it being a problem.
Still, I'll never change the 2/2 els./DoJ split. It's been too consistantly amazing.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
Of course
Guess I got a bit confused by the lack of a basic swamp there even though I even noted it
Hello friend.
Yes I tested 3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant. I am choosing to run he 3rd Decree of Justice for a multitude of reasons. Not only is it superior to virtually every other card in the mirror (outside of direct hate IE: Telemin's performance, which I obviously wouldn't do under the current metagame.) While I agree that the 3rd Elspeth, Knight-Errant is a good choice I think a variety of match ups come down to using Decree in the mid-game.
As far as my Land is concerned this is probobly the most refined and safe I've fealt in a long time. After testing Marsh Flats and picking up a copy IRL I feel like if your not running equal portions with Delta you should consider it in white heavy versions.
Most recent list?
From all the 2-colour stuff ive seen so far this semms like the most solid.
Whats the reason for no Eternal Dragon, you just don't like him or is it something more in-depht?
Did you ever feel like you have too much counter?
8 Hardcounter + 4 Balance seem a lot to me, I didn't test (I guess you did) but at first glance I'd cut 1 or two counterspells for something else.
The list seems to be really straightforward, I actually like it, but did you miss some tech cards at some point?
€dit:
1 more question:
I have no experience with the MU, how does this deck against Dragon Stompy and Chalice Aggro?
Last edited by paK0; 10-01-2009 at 11:33 AM.
Pray to draw your 2 of O Ring.
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Speaking from a dragon stompy player's angle, the matchup is probably slightly in your favor. The more colors you play, the worse it gets (obv). Just remember that our primary goal is to moon your face.
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