If you have the Shock Lands, you might as well play them. They can be fetched by Mires, unlike the rest of the lands you mention. Since you won't be playing with double fetches (many splash lists run 4 duals and 8 fetches) you should probably play either Hovel or Sulfurous Springs in that spot. I'd probably go with Hovel, it's unlikely to come into play tapped in a situation that matters.
Originally Posted by Aldo
Thanks for the responce Alecthar. Although I don't have shock lands and they're like 10 bucks each =\ although they are a good alternative to duals
which deck has the better creature base if I was going to run red/black?
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28681
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28619
They both did well in tourneys, the 2nd deck runs mad auntie's, earwig squad's, frogtosser banneret's, and no warchiefs. Which is better. I'm so undecided lolz
It's hard to say which creature base is "better" because things like that are often very meta dependent.
Test it yourself against decks that you expect to play against in your meta. Better yet, test it against the players you expect to be playing those decks, hopefully ones that are better than you.
The second list is geared more towards an aggro metagame, so if you see lots of zoo, merfolk, goblins etc that might be the better list. It's not playing goblin warchief though (instead it is playing frogtosser)! Before you cut a card considered essential for goblins, make sure you test it first. Many people have agreed that it is a good card for the deck, though some people have tested it and dropped it.
For you, I would play something more in lines with the first list, but only because it is the more tested and more proven list, and will be less meta dependent than the second. You have to cater and build your deck so that it is the right fit for your meta.
Personally, I don't think you should try going for the black splash without the proper manabase. It is more important to have a consistent goblin deck that sometimes has troubles against tarmogoyf than a deck that can die too often too its own manabase. If you are having troubles with tarmogoyf, there are certainly answers to it in mono red, and TRUST ME, I don't think anything has been more discussed in this thread than "how do I kill goyf?"
QFT. I'd stay monored, cause, as it is, I don't have much problems with Goyf with my list.
But, if you really want to run black, I'd play with 1 Swamp, 4 Bloodstained Mire, 1 Shockland, 2-3 Auntie's Hovels. If you got them, then you can add 2x other red fetches of your choice.
This is the cheapest configuration I can think of, and I'd NEVER play non-weirding spells in such a deck.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
// Lands
4 [ST] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [LRW] Auntie's Hovel
4 [B] Badlands
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
// Creatures
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
3 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
// Spells
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 2 [MOR] Earwig Squad
SB: 4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
This is the RB list I have been using and been serving me great! The manabase hasn't been an issue for me so far. The sb is where im finding most the trouble cause I find it really hard deciding what to take out in most of my matchups.
Your list looks solid Waikiki, I would consider cutting a port and adding a mountain for 17 red sources. In my testing that's how many I like to have for 4 instigator and 2 or so chieftain, which is similar to your list (3 instigator and 4 chieftain), along with 4 warchief.
How has thoughtseize out of the board been treating you? I can see that + earwig squad being important cards games 2 and 3 when you have no krosan grip or anything. However, has it been necessary? I think it might just be better to run pyrokinesis to help out the aggro matchup like zoo.
the seizes have been doing good so far.
I was actually pondering about going down to 2 instigators and add another piledriver or a single bouncer(whats his name again?)
The squads are pretty good fighting against hate indeed (same as seize) and vs zoo I think mad auntie is pretty strong aswell with the regen ability.
I would love to hear some sb strategies vs the tier1 decks from you guys. Its really hard for me.
I'm curious about Magus of the Moon in your board - what matches are you boarding him in for?
My SB is:
4x Relic of Progenitus
4x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Pithing Needle
2x Blood Moon
2x Goblin Tinkerer
After reading this forum I've decided to main deck 2 pyrokenises and so far i've liked every one i've seen. I just board them out if they don't help me (not very often)
I'm not that great of a goblin player but i'll tell you what I do anyway.
Combo: +4 Thorn of Amethyst +2 Blood Moon.... -6 Creature Removal (pyro/sting/gempalm)
Thresh: +4 Relic of Progenitus +2 Blood Moon.... -6 of something (probably 4x lackey, 2 creature removal....got relic to stop goyf and mongoose....hopefully blood moon will slow them down)
Survival: +4 Relic +3 Pithing +(maybe) blood moon... -7 creatures.... you want removal.
Burn: Just try to out pace them
Dredge: I guess 4x relic....I haven't played them much.
Stax: Probably goblin tinkerer...haven't played them much either so I dont know.
Pikula & Variants (black/white): I like +2 blood moon and +4 Thorn, if they get dark confidant out and engineered plague you're pretty much screwed.... If you play thorn you're slowing them down enough hopefully.
I've had very good luck with blood moon as it can screw over your opponents game and I won 2 out of 3 games at my local fnm last friday just by playing this, but if you get it out too late most likely it won't hurt them as much. I prefer moon to magus because you can't burn him out/counter as easy/kill easy.
I'll probably get rid of my 2 tinkerers for 2 more pyrokenises (I have 2 md) because I don't see stax much and I don't know they have a jitte until it's too late most of the time so it hasn't really helped.
Correct me if i'm wrong people
Magus of the Moon is great against 3 color decks. If you get to vial one in, you preety much won.
From DTB, I'd use him in: Tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh; Counter Top; Landstill; ANT.
From Established: Bant, TES, Truffle Shuffle, Dreadstill, Team America...
I mean, you do not HAVE to board him in. Depending on the opponents build, it may suck, but it sure is great a lot of time.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
This is the build that I slapped together for gauntlet testing. Not the build that I would personally run in a tournament, however it's a lot closer to the consensus build here:
SPELLS (4)
4 Ęther Vial
CREATURES (34)
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Stingscourger
4 Warren Instigator
LANDS (22)
18 Mountain
4 Wasteland
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
I guess I'll see if it fares better or worse...
I like the monored P.S.
I think you need to squeeze in at least 2 Siege gang.
Here's what I would run:
4 Vial
4 Lackey
3 Instigator
4 Piledriver
4 Warchief
2 Chieftain
4 Stingscourger
2 Incinerator
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
1 Kiki-Jiki
2 Siege-Gang
2 Ports
4 Wasteland
16 Mountain
I'm tempted to cut 2 Ports and 1 Mountain for 3 Chrome Mox, making the land drop go to 19 and counting the Chrome Moxes as a land drop (potentially an accelerant). This enables faster Warchiefs/Instigators/Incinerator/Stingscourger to connect.
I know Chrome Mox has been debated, but the fact that you can accelerate your turn 1-2 plays with 7 Lackeys MD and also be able to pay for Daze on the draw might be worth it. Horrible topdeck, but since it's in the place of a landslot, it's the same as topdecking a land. It gives a faster explosive start and the earlier mana is needed to resolve your bombs (Vial/instigator/Lackey).
Why are people playing less than 4 Instigators?
I actually hate that build and it's just a generic playtest deck to run against the gauntlet because it's how I see most people playing goblins. If you don't see Snow-Covered Mountain & Glacial Crevasses, then it's not my build. :)
THIS. Anybody who has tested him for more than 5 minutes knows he is the STONE COLD NUTS.
The opponent has to expend so many resources dealing with an early lackey or vial that they often don't have what it takes for the instigator beating. And if they do, now they are even further behind in their development. For any you doubters out there, tt reminds me of playing an RTS, how important resource management can be: If I do an early rush to hurt my opponent's economic development in the early game, they will probably be able to repel it without a problem at some point, but AT that point (if it was even slightly successful) I will be so far ahead economically that it isn't going to matter. Instigator is like rushing them once AND THEN RUSHING THEM AGAIN HARDER. He gets you so far ahead, and if HE does connect, then the game is often pretty much over (especially in a build with 3 SGC...)
I've also upped my siege-gang count to 3. I will never regret this decision and hopefully will never be forced to go back on it. If you doubt me, try it. Here is my build right now:
// Lands
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
17 [B] Mountain (1)
// Creatures
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [M10] Pithing Needle
It has been running amazingly. I'm a firm believer that you do not need chieftain to make instigator worth it. He is amazing on his own. I'm thinking about replacing the pithing needles with magus of the moon, as that seems to be the hot trend at the moment, and needle mostly comes in for random control matchups (though it has a couple other purposes as well, such as if I really badly need to shut down jitte for some decks, for instance).
Chieftain looked amazing in my testing, but It looks like I don't want more than 2 in the MD. I think I need some help with the SB, It feels a little random. Here's my current list:
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
16 [ZEN] Mountain (3)
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
You can fetch the shock lands with fetches, but as has been said over and over in the budget thread, it's much better to buy 1 revised dual than 2-4 of it's RAV block counterpart, as at least it's a step in the right direction. Unless I open with (fetch, waste, lackey, vial, warren wierding, (2 non-lands)), I usually fetch basics and save a mire for a swamp should I need one, the only situations where you really ever need 2+ badlands are in such as above where you want access to your black mana later, but don't have a source in hand, and after you draw a fetch later, you probably want a second RB source should the first get wasted, that way you're never cut off both R and B mana. I would trade at FNMs for the tarns, and get the mires and a single badlands. Spending money on sub-par replacements seems terribad- I'd rather just play monoR until I had the funds to do it right.
EDIT: make sure you get ahold of 4 'gators before you break the bank on fetches and duals, you are already conceding not having an optimal manabase, you should at least be playing the correct creature base.
I agree with Media. Duals own face.
And of the ones you listed, Auntie's Hovel is by far the best of the group. Only one time out of several hundred games has its drawback ever hurt me, and that was when I had an empty hand, a Siege-Gang in play, and my opponent had a Moat and an Exalted Angel and I was at 3, and I needed to make a sixth land drop to railgun the Exalted out of existence.
So outside of that ridiculously slim scenario, either you'll have the goblin to reveal or you won't have anything to do with the mana that turn. Hovel's only real drawback is giving your opponent a tiny bit of information.
I'd strongly advocate just building mono-red. Even having access to black, green, white or blue spashes I wouldn't run them over straight red. You can build it optimally with what you have and then as you win store credit/cards/money, you can opt to pick up the things needed for a splash if you're convinced it better suits your meta. Stingscourger and Incinerator are fine at dealing with Goyfs, post-board you have access to Relics if they're more important than something MD.
TPDMC
How effective is Thorn of Amethyst (or any other sideboard card for that matter) against combo? I'm considering using a white splash for Orim's Chant, but I would prefer to keep a mono red build. Money is not an issue, but there is a lot of Wasteland and Stifle in my meta, so I prefer to keep a safe mana base.
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