I think it's quite not truth. We don't have only 1 game plan. Although one looks a lot like the other, Combo is different from aggro, and our stance for each matchup may, and should, vary.Originally Posted by Tangle.Wire
For example, against Aggro-Loam or Zoo, we are willing to "combo" as soon as possible, with any creature we can find to be in table. But for CB+Top, we can win by focusing on having more creatures in table and hold our combo-try in hand for the appropriate timing.
And nevertheless, match-up analysis is more likely to be "how favorable" the match-up is, and possible good and bad choices against each.
I also aggre that we should discuss Sideboarding based on the match-ups. And also, try to figure the worse match-ups so that we can make a generic Sideboard.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Yeah, I also think, that the Sideboard, is a good discussion, we need to start...
...but what do you think is needed in the Sideboard???
IMO
4 Vexing Shusher are an absolute must
3-4 Seeds of Innocence (everybody plays it)
are needed...
about the rest, I don't know... maybe 2-4 Graveyardhates (Crypt vs Relic discussion)
maybe more Artifact/Enchantment hate [(are 2 Reverent Silence needed) Prison, Propaganda, Enchantress, Moat, Worship...], do we need additional/more Artifact&Enchantment removal (like Naturalize)
do we have the space for anticombocards, or should we ignore that MU?
YawG
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
I think Sideboard Slots for Graveyard hate shouldn't be more than 3 as we don't need to board much against dredge as the matchup is fine with/without crypts. I think Relics are to slow here even with 1 mana. For Naturalize/Grip etc i found out boarding it for everything beside Countertop lock a Set of Oxidize and Wax//Wane is pretty good. Against landstill/countertop i am currently giving Root Maze a try as addition to Winter orb.
I think Reverent Silence is pretty good as 6 life is not that worse even if you play the Kavu list.
Normally i wouldn't say something like that but: Won't Jitte be a good add on for most matchups? it works excellent with trample damage and can win us the combats against Goofies etc.
Aggreed. 3 is fine for us, i usualy run 3 tormods.
We usually run seeds over oxidize, and wax//wane is a good 2color option.
Seeds is just as better as it is for Kavu.
You probably should try some Vexing Shusher against CounterTop, and even agains Landstill, once they will need to kill him as soon as possible.
Only game I prefer Reverent over any other hate is enchantress...
Jitte goes more aggro against our aggro matchups, in which we are willing to keep our creatures on board, and "combo" them up. That's probably why it's not used: It doen't save your critters and ins't fast enough for the combo.
I want to do some further tests with Pithing Neddle... It seems to be such an awesome sideboard option... need some results to prove it though...
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Pithing Needle is a no-brain card somehow...
every time I played in in my Stompy Sideboard, I thought something like: "This card is not bad, but it's also not the optimum"
IMO it's awesome on paper, but not really needed...
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
Could you tell us what you used it against?
I fell like i could use it against aggro-loam, but there again, aggro loam should be a good match.
Against combos, LED based, and belcher/Painter... and Ichorid...
And against CB-Top, but Shusher + Krosan should handle it better too...
But there are a lot of decks that get hurt by well played needle... dunno if it's our focus thou.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
against NQG and Stuff, you don't need it because Shusher does the Job better...
against Decks packing mass Deeds, EEs, etc. you just dont need to overextend with your creatures...
against Goblins I named Vial, but we don't need to, because we are faster...
(same goes for Merfolk)
CotV is better against Combo than Needle is...
The only MU where Needle was great was against Survival...
I really see no MU except Survival where you really want Needle...
...it isn't a bad card, its an good allaround card, if you don't know, what you could play... but IMO not really needed
YawG
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
In my stompy version(i´ve playing this deck more than two years or so and i´ve tried lot of versions). While Cesar always liked monocolored i´ve always liked with a little splash of red and/or white. We had argued sometimes about that but always he has preferred the MONO_G version and i always preffered multicolored.
Currently i´m playing hidden herd. Everybody nowdays plays nonbasic lands (fetches are everywhere and duals too). Is a 3/3 for G so is basicly a nacatl but sometimes better. Because i play multicolored I´m playing in this deck nacatls too so i have 8 3/3 creatures for one mana. Beside of that i´m playing silhanas, kavus, qasalis and in the last version i was trying viashino slaughtermaster (they are good enough but not as impresive as they may look like on paper).
I´m trying to find a good replacement for them and i´m thinking on the new goblin (goblin guide because his haste a 2 power hability ) could be enough to have chances of winning on second turn.
My manabase has 8 (G-R, G-W) fetches and 8 duals(same) and 4 forest but i´m trying to improve it because i think adding more fetches (W-R and basics) could be better and reducing the land count could be good too.
Because i´m playing white i use Swords to phlowshares MD. They are great because pumps predators at the same time we remove the worst creature the oppoenent has. Believe me, they saved me lot of times and i think they are needed in the multicolored version.
I´m looking for another dude to play with. In the last two years I´ve tried:
Talara´s batallion (his drawback is heavy)
Jotun Grunt (Big body, helps against any decks, makes little goyfs and so) but in firsts turns where we need to play creatures they are not good at all.
VExing shusher : they are awesome, but more SDB material.
Watchwolf:they are good, if i don´t find anything more i´m playing them.
Slippery boggle: they are good but has a small body. They are only attacking when you can combo out and because nowdays there are lot of big creatures to deal with i´m not very sold about them because they can´t evade.
Skyshroud elite: a 2/3 is not imppresive at all. The left my list lot of time ago
Kird Ape: Same as elites but worse because R is their cost
Tarmogoyf:A middle-late game creature. I´ve played them and they are good but i´m trying to play a deck without them.
Nettle sentinel: Sometimes you run out of green cards in your hand. Sometimes this dude is unuseful and i don´t like this times so i´m not playing it anymore in this deck.
Skarrgan : Good and bad, Has an awesome evasing hability but it needs anybody to connect before they comes into play because a 1/1 is not as impresive and a 2/2 is not too. They are good with rancor, but nowdays there are lot of removal everywhere so i´m not playing them now.
Jungle Lion: very circunstancial creature. I´m never like them
Tattermunge: same a Lion
Scrib sprites: small body, evasive but very small.
Troll Ascetic:Powerhouse but lot of expensive. 3CC is much more than we want to pay for a critter.
River Boa: Not bad nor good. Evasive and regenerable but it´s still sords/path objetive and needs to keep open mana so not good for this deck.
vinde dryad, Rogue elephant,......They are not playable nowdays. Perhaps 10 years ago they were the beaters but never more.
Any ideas or suggestions?
For pumping now i´m using:
Might of old krosa
invigorate
Berserk
Vines of the vastwood(they were rancors before).
Note that because my creatures are bigger (3/3 as usual) i don´t need rancors usually to combo out, and since creatures are removed when you try to rancor them (2x1) i´ve tried to avoid that.
Ideas suggestions?
Could you please list it? And results? Matchups? =)
EDIT: By what i've seen in your crossed-away list, you could use some cutting berserk and play Zoo =P
Right, kidding here, k?
No, seriously, I need the list to reach any conclusion... you just crossed like half of our basic list away...
As for now, I would just say rancor isn't good at all as part of the combo. But it's good enough for it and Great for the Aggro role. That's why it's there.
EDIT 2: My bad, seems like you almost already posted the list.
From what I can see:
20 or something Lands
4 Nacatl
4 Hidden Herd
4 Kavu
4 Silhana's
4? Quasali
4 Looking for something
4 Might of old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
4 Vines of vastwood
4 Swords to plowshares
Lightning bolts?
Well, what i can see is that you run Berserk as an alternate plan to a zoo...
Dunno about 4VoVW, maybe 2/2 split with rancor? with seal?
Hidden Herd is, indeed, a great card... there is no much walkaroud (and i indeed forgot posting it in the first page.). Just wish you are not facing much gobblins/merfolks, and you will be fine.
Last edited by Gui; 10-06-2009 at 02:41 PM.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
...I think Berserk Stompy should stay Mono-G
...if we splash good cards from R and W, we build more and more in this direction, and then, we end in playing zoo...
YawG
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
Agreed. Not that I want to be a dick to people and say "get out of the thread" or anything, I'm up for discussion on it. But if there's going to be discussion, lets do it right. Someone needs to point out a good reason why G/r/w Stompy isn't just a bad version of Zoo. I think the default assumption that Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Price are better than Invigorate, Might, and Berserk is pretty solid -- who's on the other side of that argument?
My list is the following:
// Lands
4 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [U] Taiga
4 [U] Savannah
// Creatures
4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
// Spells
4 [U] Berserk
4 [MM] Invigorate
4 [TSP] Might of Old Krosa
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
4 [US] Hidden Herd
4 [ZEN] Vines of Vastwood
This is my current list. I think the mix of stompy is better than burn because this way let me win matches that otherwise i never couldn´t won .
What do you think about my list?
To be honest, that would be my oppinion too, but we should respect the 3-c version with Nacatl, not only because it has higher power creatures, and optitions like swords, but also because they are playing the same core as we are.
If we intend this deck to reach somewere, even if they both look too different, we know that the idea is the same, and thus, we should work together.
I like the monogreen version for it's manabase stability, but the Gwr version may be better against few other matchups... We could then:
a) Analyse it; or
b) Play them.
Both are great for us =)
Anyways, I'm not the one who will say Grw is better than otherwise running Zoo.
Conidering that Zoo's badmatch should be combo (due to it's aggro nature), I would most likely say going berserk is a mistake for that shell...
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
shell....
hmm, what do you think is part of the Shell/Core of the Deck...
IMO its:
4 Nettle
4 Skarrgan
4 Bogle
4 Ledgewalker
4 Kavu
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Might
a minimum of 10 Forests
at least 6 other mana sources, fetches, etc.
SB:
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Seeds of Innocence
...this leaves us with 8 other cards to play around with, to complete this deck...
I know that are many cards, but that is my opinion of corecards for this deck...
What do you think belongs to the shell of Berserk Stompy?
YawG
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
This. =)
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Same shell for me, filling in the manabase with 6 more Forests because losing to Stifle/Duress is awkward. My extra eight maindeck slots are 4 Skyshroud Elite, 2 Vines of Vastwood, and 2 Briar Shield. I didn't initially think that Briar Shield would be any good, but Boggles and Ledgewalkers just don't provide a clock unless you have Rancor, so having Briar is a nice backup plan for them. Whoever said that a page or two back, nice call.
I'm still not sold on Vines of Vastwood, it's so taxing on the mana and not always up when it really counts. I need to do a lot more testing on the thing.
The two cards I'm currently tempted most by are Scryb Ranger and Cold-Eyed Selkie. The former is just such great manafixing for casting post-board Seeds and pro-Merfolk is awesome. I can't help being interested in the Selkie: she's ForceOfWill-Walk, ignores CB, and if a deck was ever going to make her work, this would be it. I mean really, it doesn't get much cooler than hitting her with Krosa to draw five.
EDIT -- I might try something like 1-2 Selkie and 1-2 Vine Dryad so that I have some more landwalkers and I can throw the Selkies to the Dryad if I can't find three land.
i thought on selkie too. Usually sshe was countered always or killed before she hits because with this deck you can draw an absurd amount of cards. Now with vines of the vastwood could be an option but i think they are lot mana intensive so i´m not very sold about it.
Anyways i think they are too slow forr this deck.
On the other hand, i understand you when you say you prefer Mono-G and i´m not trying to make you change your mind about that, but please respect the Grw deck. I´m only trying to help you to develop the most powerful stompy ever was created since my deck is like the big brother of yours (big because i´m using another colors, but call him like you wish).
Another idea i saw the last weekend on a shop was using uktabi drake (2/1 haste flying for G with echo 1GG). I think you can use this guy to make "Surprise Surprise" after the other player uses his mana to remove your dudes thinking you need two turns to attack or so. With this dude you can win in only one turn and with a nice evasive hability. The problem is that usually he is going to die on the next turn (echo 3??? OMG, ) but think of you are playing tattermunge who usually dies as well against almost every deck with creatures on it. I think it could be tested.
Bria shield is nice, and play a role similar to seal of strength. I used to run 4 seal + 4 briar before krosa came up, so that I could play my pumps on turn a, and combo on turn b.
I would appreciate a lot your test results on selkies, vastwood and ranger.
I fell like ranger is too slow and no removal-proof, so i don't fell like using it: I prefer running 18 lands and consider I'll most likely have 3 forest on table... that's also why I don't run fetchs and wastelands...
I don't think the 1-2 vine dryad plan is good at all... play 1-2 extra forest if you fell like you need, 'cos vine dryad is to be a first commer, so you either should play 3-4 of it and wish you have it in opening hand, or cut it from the list.
Maybe 4-of vastwood, 4-of scryb and 3~4 selkie, in a "manafix-draw-protect" combo, together with 18 lands, could handle it...
that would give us no much room though:
4 skarrgan, 4 boogle, 4 silhana, 4 kavu (16)
4 berserk, 3 seal (manafix), 4 invigorate, 4 VoVW (19)
3 selkie
4 scryb ranger
18 Lands
Seems ok, but a lot less "aggro" then the deck usually can be...
Yep, we shall respect it.(at least, I do.)
We are looking forward your testing resulsts too.
I've tested it once, and I hate it. It's a mid-late game slot if you wish to keep him alive, or if you wish to combo him up. And it's a bad version of shock if you play it first turn.
----------------
Double-post avoidance Edit:
Sweet, CHaPuZaS is going to join us at The Source =)
I contacted Nihil... Just can't remember the procedure to get the privileges... anyways, he always get some nice results =)
Last edited by Gui; 10-07-2009 at 09:06 AM.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
That's great to hear! I would like to know why he likes to play Tattermunge Maniac. I tested it and did not like it at all. Tattermunge forces you to throw away pump spells, i.e., combo pieces, while engaging in attrition wars. If you don't cast Might or Invigorate you usually get 1 for 0ed. The best you do is 1-1.
He aswers that in his blog. He didn't test nettle enough, that's why he decided for maniac. He didn't explain maniac over lion though.
About our sideboard issues, besides the shusher which seems to be the 61st~64th card of the deck against control, been considering:
What about dropping Seeds for Krosan/Naturalize? Seeds best is against Stax 'n' Affy, which can be hurted by Krosan/Naturalize that are far more versatile. Besides, they pawn Moat and Humility too.
And what about dropping tormods, which is best against loam, and some threshs, and use Needle instead, which is good against: Loam, CB+Top, Isochron, Belcher, Painter and any activation-based. Also, it's 1cc, which is affordable.
And what about using Shards of Amethyst against Combos?
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
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