Even without the Perfect, just having blockers is enough. The Angel is a 4-turn clock on its own and being able to chump guys in order to protect her will pretty much guarantee a win. Given you should be able to crank out creature after creature, you should be able to block them just fine unless they happen to draw enough remove to kill all your blockers at once and alpha strike to kill her, but even then that's rare.
However, I feel in almost all circumstances getting Progenitus is a better play. Empyrial Archangel is pretty much only better if you're very low on life and need to stay out of burn range. Their creatures are usually much larger than ours because of removal hitting the lords, so within a couple turns they can take down the angel anyway. I'm much more comfortable playing Progenitus and simply racing them, which has worked a good amount of the time. Progenitus itself time walks them as they aren't going to throw creatures in front of it, but they can take down the angel if they have a couple creatures and a burn spell. Instead, putting them on a 2-turn clock is a bit stronger because odds are you'll be able to dump out 1-2 more creatures the following turn to block, then win the game the turn after.
I'm just curious... Absolute Law is THE card we sideboard against Zoo and burn/red heavy decks. Doesn't this, incorperated with our Archangel, make us unkillable against Zoo (except for Nactl and Goyf)? All bolts to the head will be redirected to Archangel and damage prevented due to Absolute Law giving prot. red.Originally Posted by Di
That will be the saferun ofc.
Resolving progenitus is always good. But by the time you will be able to resolve NO into Prog you will most likely be pretty low on life, around 6-12? By that time I would rather have archangel. I've been playing against Zoo decks pretty much and my little pointy ear friends more than most gets struck by lightning and fire. Which slows this deck down a lot.
If you get the nuts draw and can power out a T2-3 Prog, then it's great to resolve.
If you have to resolve Absolute Law and Natural Order in a single game against Zoo, quite frankly you could get either one and win the game.
If you resolve Natural Order and you're over 8 life, I would always get Progenitus. Odds are it won't be the only creature you have in play, and odds are when you cast it the opponent isn't going to be holding a hand full of burn, because it'd be going at your creatures before anything else. If you even have the ability to resolve Natural Order, the opponent most likely doesn't have removal in their hand at all, unless you managed to play a creature and Order in the same turn, which is unlikely. Because you know this, getting Progenitus is almost always the right play. Even if you're staring at a few creatures I'd prefer Progenitus if I'm over 6 life in the end. The scenarios can pretty much play out like this:
You have no other creatures in play and cast Order getting Progenitus. This tells you the opponent most likely isn't holding burn, because they would've used it to kill your blocker. So this can play out like so:
- They attack you with their team and lose a guy to Progenitus blocking. They play something. You follow up with what is most likely a creature to block with. They either kill you the following turn through that blocker or lose.
- They don't attack into Progenitus. You essentially time walk them and untap, play a blocker and then attack. They need to hope to somehow deal lethal through a blocker.
Granted it won't always play out like that, but had you gotten Empyrial Archangel without another creature, they merely attack the next turn with their team and kill it. Plus, an extra two turns would be needed to kill them, and they can also quite easily kill the Angel within the following turns after that. If you're in late game and cast Order, Angel will only save you if you have enough blockers to stop their creatures from damaging her, which won't be often. It's more often worth it to put them on a faster clock and have Progenitus block for a turn than hope Angel can get you there.
But if I have Absolute Law and get attacked by Kird Apes etc. and only have a Archangel in play, if I take that damage and redirect it to Archangel, does it still count as damage from a red source and thus prevented? Or will this kill the archangel even though I redirect leathal damage to the angel?
The damage will be prevented. However, that's still an incredibly narrow situation, and it still doesn't account for the Nacatls, Tarmogoyfs, Pridemages, and KotR that will still be attacking. Even with Absolute Law, it isn't difficult for them to attack high enough to kill the angel, and odds are they'll eventually get enough to kill it. If they alpha strike with green creatures you'll either lose the angel or lose your other creatures blocking them, then lose the angel the following turn, while only getting in 2-3 attack phases with it, which most likely isn't going to kill them.
Ah, I see where you're going... So you should only get Archangel with NO when you're really low?
Which means when you're up against Zoo/Burn Sligh or whatever, you board +3 Absolute Law + 1 Empyrial Archangel? And of course leave progenitus in.
Or would I benefit to board something else to increase my win chances?
As of now my board looks like this:
3 Absolute Law
4 Krosan Grip
1 Acidic Slime (Used against Glacial Chasm and other lands that could be troublesome)
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Woodfall Primus
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Choke
just from my side, I would side in archangel against enchantress.
I wouldn't be too sure against zoo.
be ware that the absolute law will probably not last long in a game against zoo since they mostly play 4 of the exalted guys ...
Not quite. I'm saying you shouldn't even run it at all. You'll get Empyrial Archangel maybe 20% of the time against Zoo, and in every other matchup outside of straight Burn Progenitus is the better creature. The number of occasions you even bother getting Empyrial Archangel are incredibly minimal, and it isn't worth the sideboard slot. Speaking of which, I question your sideboard a bit as you have no outs against any graveyard-based decks and have a high number of Natural Order targets that are situational and generally inferior to Progenitus.
That's true, although Ichorid or other GY decks haven't seen much play in the meta over here. I don't know which GY hate would be best if those decks would rise in popularity, Relic of Progenitus or Crypt? I can't think of other GY hate that would be played easily, except for Loaming Shaman.
The reason I run Empyrial Archangel might be very narrow but it can fly over moats when Progenitus just sits there and watches. Ofc I have the Krosan Grips to come in against those enchantments, but then again, it's not tutorable. I will drop the Empyrial Archangel sooner or later when I come to realize that it doesn't pull it's weight.
What would you suggest for a board (I've given up on boarding against combo decks since it's a almost impossible matchup either way)? I think that I would keep Woodfall Primus in the board since his interaction in the deck is great, with Cabal Therapies and being able to tutor for it with NO.
The Acidic Slime got a place in the board ever since I played against some people that were running Glacial Chasm in their decks (and I couldn't seem to get Wasteland when I needed it the most). Glacial Chasm hoses this deck when it's run in a Exploration shell with recursion.
If I were to change my board, I would remove Acidic Slime and Empyrial Archangel and open up two more slots, but I dunno what this would be. Relics/Loaming Shamans? Or something else and just ignore GY based decks since I don't face that many?
I'm all ears for any suggestions and card discussions, especially when you more than often explain pros/cons.
But you know that Woodfall Primus does the same job Acidic Slime does?
Against Glacial Chasm the higher CC shouldn't be relevant, as you simply sit on a horde of mana-producing Elves while attacking would be useless.
I would always prefer the bigger body of WP.
Against Enchantress you need a flyer or some "destroy all enchantments" right before you are able to alpha-strike them. I know,.. Enchantress doesn't see much play these days, but it is a constant threat here. So is Stupid Burn. So my board differs a bit as it consists 1 Empyrial Archangel & 0-3 Reverent Silence/Tranquility/Tranquil Domain (I'm not set on a particular one yet).
When I read your post I just had to check out woodfall and compare it with acidic. I was convinced Woodfall hit "nonland permanents" but it can't hit creatures... Now that I've settled that, Acidic is out. :)
Was just a matter of time until I would've noticed.
I still like the fact that Empyrial Archangel has flying and shroud, which makes it a better NO target against decks packing Moats etc.
I don't feel very comfortable with to rely on 4 krosan grip to turn my game against a Moat.
I just want to mention something. How do you play against a deck that resolves a Ioona on "green" against this deck? You basically scoop? I can't imagine running creature removal in my board other than StP/PtE since we have the white mana.
I'd just play Virtue's Ruin and laugh.
Nay, I just like unconventional cards...
I've always wished for some creature-removal, but it's not needed so often, as you can outpower single creatures with a mass of yours, or luckily pick them with Therapy out of the hand before they see play (in the Survival-less version).
'til now I don't see any decks packing Iona MD for sure. I've seen it only in Reanimator so far, but I don't read all threads here.
Well, we have graveyard hate to hit her before shes reanimated, so that helps if we can get that online. Otherwise, I'd run Eyeblight's Ending in my sideboard if it became a problem.
hey, been testing his deck quite a bit now with some friends of mine and am quite pleased with its performance against thresh and goyf sligh and pikula.
however i've been losing more than not to goblins with i feel should have been an atleast equal matchup. been wondering if its just me or if this mu really sucks so much. my friend plays with Stingscourger and some removal, so i keep getting my blockers bounced or removed for the lackey to run though. recovery after that is sometimes possible but not often.
do you think its worth taking about enginered plague instead of the therapys in that mu? or any other suggestions?
You have more lords than them. And with lords, your guys are bigger. If you're having trouble with the matchup, try a couple jittes in the board.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
Absolute Law also helps this matchup. And by that, I mean it makes it insanely good. They essentially can't win through it unless they run something like Perish. The fact that we swarm incredibly well and faster than them barring they getting the nuts, gives us the edge in that matchup. Plus, they have serious issue dealing with you if Progenitus is on the table by turn 3-4. The only ways I've really lost this matchup is under these narrow conditions:
- You're on the draw, they have a turn 1 Lackey, turn 2 removal spell for blocker and happen to have the nutty Piledriver draw.
- You're on the draw without a turn 1 play.
- You're on the play without a turn 1 or two play.
Otherwise, you match all their card advantage very well and much quicker than them, and have Natural Order. If you're on the play have a turn 2 lord, an Elvish Archdruid none the less, it is going to be very difficult for them to win when you are dropping your hand turn 3.
imo, Di is right about the gobo's matchup.
normally we only lose when their first 2 turns are good (i.e. lackey + removal/no T1 drop for us).
If they cannot rush us in turn 2 or 3, then we will have bigger creatures and likely also more of them ...
sideing absolute law against them is just insane, especially since most of them are playing RB and not a lot of RGB anymore
that plus jitte is just game :o)
I'm just wondering why people don't play Planar Void as grave hate? I believe it's very effective for only B against the decks that matters, aggro loam, ichorid etc.
Relic draws you a card, and it doesnt require black to play.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
Although Planar Void isn't a one use activation and access to T1 black isn't that hard to establish against ichorid or other gravedecks.
Maybe the cantrip from Relic is that important, but they serve different roles imo.
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