TES is just harder to play and more rewarding. This deck fails without ANT, TES has more options.
I think this decks manabase is better, but TES makes up for this with brutal power.
You sound like you're fucking terrible with combo decks.Originally Posted by Nidd
Anyway, the skill level required to play the 14-16land fetchland-based Tendrils decks and rainbowland-based Tendrils decks is similar. The biggest decisions you'll face are cantrip decisions followed by the question of when to go off. There are other decisions (tutor targets, sideboard decisions are huge, when to go for Ad Nauseam vs another win condition like IGG, interaction questions with stuff like Duress, etc) but the majority of your time will be spent pondering Ponders and trying to figure out when is the appropriate time to combo off (weighing your hand and known information vs what you know of your opponent's hand, board, deck, and all the math/intuition behind these).
TES doesn't actually have more options than ANT. TES has:
Natural (Protection/Cantrips/Enemy-Low Life Kills)
Ad Nauseam
Ill-Gotten Gains
Diminishing Returns
ETW
ANT has:
Natural
Ad Nauseam
Ill-Gotten Gains
(Doomsday)
(ETW)
The last two depend highly on what build of ANT you play. It seems dutch players are content moving into red for ETW as an answer to CB strategies. The guys on the storm boards (myself included) favor Ad Nauseam and Doomsday paired with a 4-5c manabase.
Very few lists see play without both Ad Nauseam and Ill-Gotten Gains. It's easy to include IGG in any LED list with Infernal Tutor (a common tutor for Ad Nauseam) and it solves issues related to low-life total combo turns. If you don't have Ad Nauseam, it's very easy to build storm with Infernal Tutor into Ill-Gotten Gains (it only costs 2 more mana than winning with Ad Nauseam (with 0 mana floating) anyway).
The variants of ANT packing Sensei's Divining Tops are additionally far more brutal on a player of the course of a tournament than TES. These include lists like jegger's without Doomsday and lists like Pulp_fiction's or mine with Doomsday. All of the cantrips, plus Doomsday, with as many or more tutors, and the added complication of properly abusing fetchlands.
The streamlined ANT lists, such as those favored by mateml, have the same consistency AND average speed of TES. When you compare the lists, you can see why: the differences are that TES plays 3 fewer lands that are rainbow instead of in a fetch/dual config (on average), Cabal Rituals, and fewer Mystical tutors while making that up with an additional Chrome Mox (sometimes), a set of Rite of Flames, and Burning Wishes. Total changes (ignoring the first 11 lands which are a fetch<->rainbow swap):
-3 Land
-4 Cabal Rit
-2 Mystical Tutor
+1 Chrome Mox
+4 Burning Wish
+4 Rite of Flame
The changes from some of the more hybridized lists like NLS are similar replacing some Infernal Tutors and Rite of Flames from TES with Mystical Tutors and Cabal Rituals).
Burning Wish does not significantly increase average goldfish speed compared to Mystical Tutor. This has nothing to do with a "card disadvantage tutor" but instead with the major limiting factors of initial mana sources and ritual effects. Neither TES nor ANT can reliably have enough mana to combo turn 1 without first casting Brainstorm or Ponder (at which point they probably have to pass where their chances increase dramatically). This means the Mystical Tutor being played on the end step or upkeep will still contribute to the turn two win (roughly the average in a goldfish).
I have no idea where you come up with this idea that TES will be faster than a stock ANT list in a goldfish (or against disruption). The decks are extremely close with similar odds in just about all facets of the game. The small percentage of the time that TES might be faster due to the acceleration swap of Rite of Flame for Cabal Ritual won't likely show in any given 1000 goldfish hands.
In fact, the only way to make either deck noticeably faster is to add in Simian Spirit Guides for the IMS boost, which most pilots are not willing to do due to a slightly increased average CMC. Your limiting point in speed here is because the lists have replaced acceleration with cantrips for consistency. Adding Rite of Flames to ANT or Cabal Rituals to TES will have similar effects (although less noticeable with your ability to combo turn 1 and your average CMC) but penalize either your consistency (replacing cantrips/tutors) or your non-goldfish speed (replacing protection).
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Very well said. We don't need another thread about TES vs FT! Both decks have their merits. While I don't think TES is any faster than a regular 7-8 ritual ANT list some will argue different. TES is often viewed as more versatile since it has Burning Wish but, I have been playing ANT/DDFT for a very long time and haven't wanted Burning Wish. Out of the ridiculous number of tournament matches I have played combo in I have only had Tendrils Extirpated 1 time.
I don't want to argue which is more skill testing because it all depends on your grasp of combo. Personally I think Doomsday is the most skill testing combo card due to the fact it can be adapted to deal with basically anything, you just have to do the math. BUT I have made some pretty insane plays with TES in a tournament setting as well so both decks really have the ability to rack your brain hard.
Too me this is what it all comes down to, I don't want to play a combo deck without Sensei's Divining Top. It helps so much with consistency and mulligans that its ridiculous. I have mulled to 4 and opened up Top/land, hit nothing with top 3, fetched, and won on turn 4. Top just adds SO much to the deck that everytime I sleeve up TES to take it to a tournament I always end up taking it apart cause I don't want to miss out on having access to Top. I feel it adds a whole nother realm of consistency to combo decks and allows you to do some insanely broken things.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Played a single elimination tourney on MWS for a swedish site.
Not very long, but I have lost all games vs. blue, i don't know if it's me :)
I tried emidln's list from his blog with doomsday, not that I know how to play DD but anyways.
Vs Merfolk.
Game 1. I keep a hand of duress and stuff that will accel me to AdN turn 2.
I duress turn 1 and take daze as the other stuff is just vial and water creatures that don't do anything.
He draws and plays cursecatcher that I didn't see from duress, well, slows me down 1 turn, i draw and go as i need mana. He draws and attacks and says go.
Next turn i draw my mana as I have 1 to spare now when i play AdN, I go for it, he FoWs, must've been his second draw after cursecatcher.... ok, gratz.
Game 2.
We both mull, I start with swarm, he FoWs it, later I set up via top and duress an AdN with 16 life, I win.
Game 3. I mull
He starts with island.
Me swarm, he daze.
He land, go.
Me swarm, he FoW.
Then i draw into 2 mystical tutor and have:
2 mystical, chrome mox, IGG, doomsday, petal on hand and 2 land in play(bayou, volcanic island). I just don't know what to do here...
I have time to mystical 2 end steps and survive but then i have to win and it cant be via AdN
and ofcourse I fuck up, I could set up IGG, but he has FoW in GY so... not good, and I don't have time or mana to find silence and then go. So i die.
Should i DD for something here?
Finding Dark Rit and then Brainstorm lets you build BS/LED/LED/Ponder/Tendrils which wins for BBB (Doomsday) + UU. You could also play Chrome Mox imprinting IGG while finding Dark Rit+BS/Ponder and Doomsday for Rit/Med/Rit/Rit/Tendrils. Either leaves you vulnerable to Daze/Cursecatcher as well as Force of Will/Stifle though. Your best option is to probably Mystical into Brainstorm then try to fix your hand here.
I would also have immediately cast the first Mystical Tutor to find Brainstorm.
I've been testing this list recently:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalded Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ponder
4 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 1-2 Deathmark
SB: 0-1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I had a couple questions, I know this is a bit old as a list, but still. First, 61 cards main deck? That seems wrong. Also could you just sketch out how you sideboard for a couple of the big matchups? Lastly, how good is the one of Krosan Grip main...is it worth making your mana a little worse in G1 as opposed to siding both tropicals and playing swamp?
Hi,
I'm working on a list, that includes all the 0-mana artifact creatures. They can block the first damage dealt by opposing creatures so we can draw enough cards with Ad Nauseam. They also give us more stormcount in the winning turn.
The problem is that you mostly need 2 cards to use the synergies, e.g. Culling the Weak or Diabolic Intent, but when you have it, these cards are very strong.
As I tested the list a little bit (10 games so far) and I realized that you need at least one of the 8 Tutors, Ad Nauseam itself, the Cunning Wish or a very good hand an a Brainstorm in your opponing hand to find Ad Nauseam quick enough. Otherwise I took a mulligan, because without any option finding Ad Nauseam you will loose the game, it won't come from the top.
I didn't miss Orim's Chant or Silence, the protection consisting of Cabal Therapy (very strong in most match-ups, you know which card srews you up) and Pact of Negation in combination with the Cunning Wish to fetch different answers, seems to be good enought to me. Staying UB is also a advantage against color-screw and wastelands.
here is the list:
Main:
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pact of Negation
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Cunning Wish
//46
Lands:
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
//14
Side:
4 Dark Confidant (anti-control package)
4 Hypnotic Specter (anti-control package)
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Brain Freeze
1 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Wipe Away
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Cabal Ritual
//15
What are your suggestions?
I apologize for the bluntness of this but that list is awful. Playing the tall men has always added a great deal of inconsistencies to the deck and gives you so many dead draws that its insane. I used to play SI and I know how awful they are, and I only ran 8! Where is LED ... IT?? If you built this for budget reasons I totally understand. But currently, if you want to play just regular ANT without Doomsday there is no reason at all to not play this:
4x Dark Ritual
4x LED
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Orim's Chant
4x Lotus Petal
4x Cabal Ritual
3x Silence
2x Chrome mox
2x Ponder
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Tendrils
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Krosan Grip
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
1x tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
Sideboard
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Krosan Grip
2x Slaughter Pact
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Ad Nauseam
1x IGG
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Plains
The SB is clearly all meta dependent but this is one of the most consistent ANT lists you will see. I don't know why everyone is afraid of LED and IT, I guess I have just been playing combo to long ... but there is not a single reason to NOT run it. Especially now that we have access to 8 chants + Xantid Swarm in the SB! Makes everything that much better. And the IGG loop gives you so many wins as does going all in on IT and fetching AdN. Its really insane, plus Cabal Ritual always adds mana, where as Culling can and will sit in your hand. IT and LED is way to powerful to not play in combo just based off of how many free (guarnteed) wins it gives you.
Now, if this is for budget reasons, meaning no duals, Chants, LEDs I would saw cut the tall men down to 8, just play Walker and Sphere, add in 2x Ponder and 2x Sensei's Divining Top and then go -1 Diabolic Intent and +1 Tendrils of Agony. That should make the list decent but you are still going to have a ridiculous amount of dead draws and hand destruction will just rip a deck like this so shreds. SI and Belcher taught me many lessons on what to not play when it comes to combo! If this deck is not for budget reasons, put the list above together.
Also, lets please ignore the LED vs non-LED debate because it is getting old. If anyone really wants do debate this we should really start seperate threads for the decks.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
I don't write here from a while, because I do only a tournament this year in May with my pet deck.
Last sunday I returned to play this deck at a medium event of 135 players and I've finished 2°. I know here nobody plays without DD, but I post anyway the list I've used:
4 delta
4 strand
1 scalding tarn
2 island
1 plains
1 usea
1 scrubland
1 tundra
4 LED
4 petal
2 chrome
1 diamond
4 ritual
4 cabal
4 mystical
3 IT
1 IGG
1 AN
1 ToA
1 wipe away
4 orim
2 silence
2 sensei
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
SIDE
2 volcanic island
4 pyroblast
1 pyroclasm
1 chain of vapor
2 hurkyl
1 wipe away
1 echoing truth
1 rushing river
1 extirpate
1 slaughter pact
Some choices were meta call (15° land, mox diamond and additional orims were for the tempo meta). The average CC is 1,18 so AN is very efficent although with 6 orims more often than normal I combo with IGG.
The pairings I founded:
dredge (with unmask in SB) 2-0
zoo (with 3 canonist, 3 teeg, reb in SB) 2-0
landstill (counters + 4 CB & 4 meddling in SB) 2-0
merfolk (no denial) 2-0
merfolk (denial) 2-1
proBant (counter, CB) 2-1
reanimator - tie
goblin - tie
TOP8
goblin 2-0
proBant (the same of swiss) 2-0
canadian (classic list without Goose + Clique & Lavamancer) 0-2
The deck is nice and it's a good tier2.
The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel. - Neuromancer
How do you SBī the different bouncespells?
DCI: 68 10 43 34
I'm playing a list with 6 chants and DD, with an average cmc of 1,24, almost the same as yours (you get, on average, one card more for every 20 flipped cards or so).
I'm particularly interested in the Pyroblast plan, that I've not yet tested in such a deck. I guess it's your plan both against counterdecks and CB?
I'm actually playing green for a sb like:
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
*SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [VI] Helm of Awakening
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
*SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
*SB: 1 [OV] Abeyance
SB: 1 [5E] Hurkyl's Recall
*SB: 2 [IA] Disenchant
SB: 1 [B] Bayou
SB: 1 [TE] Plains (3)
I'm not sure about the * slots. Is the Pyroblast plan working well? Do you suggest me trying it in place of the green splash?
What do you side in/out against counterbalace? And what against tempo decks (UGr, Merfolk)?
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Apparently everyone is writing tournament reports so I will just give a quick summary of what happened and discuss the blue matches in detail a little later on. Tonight I made it to a top 4 split at my local tournament out of 31 people, went 4-1-1 and played the following:
4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
4x Infernal Tutor
3x Cabal Ritual
2x Chrome Mox
1x Silence
1x Ponder
1x Tendrils
1x Krosan Grip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
Sideboard
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
2x Krosan Grip
1x Naturalize
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Plains
This was a semi-experimental list and I did not like it. 4x Infernal Tutor feels like too many and I was really missing the extra Ponder. It really felt like I was playing ANT all night, I didn't win a single game with Doomsday and never really had the capabilities too. The deck was acting funny but still performing at an incredible level, I kept drawing useless 1-ofs all night rather than good cards but everything eventually worked out. Here is a summary of what I played against:
Round 1: Brassman Blue
1-2
I won the first then proceded to lose to triple CB, double Force in the second, and lost the third after a mull to 5 and drawing nothing.
Round 2: Zoo
2-1
Game 1 I just mulled to 5 and drew garbage, good times. Game 2 I fought through turn 2 Null Rod and turn 3 Pillar. And game 3, won through a Pillar after drawing a sick amount of 1-ofs.
Round 3: Enchantress
2-0
I felt bad about this matchup, I timewalk him with Chant and easily IGG Loop out on turn 3. Same thing in the second game except I win with AdN on turn 2.
Round 4: 4C CB Thresh (Loxodon Baileyarch)
2-0
Game 1 was beautiful, turn 2 Silence right into IGG Loop. Game 2 I just drew too many threats and he draws triple Force. After he has exhausted all his resources I have LED, LED, IT, Petal, Ritual .... GG.
Round 5: ID with R/W Goblins
Top 8
Round 6: Recruiter Aluren (ChokeSeemsGood)
Game 1 I keep a semi-iffy hand and proceed to Brainstorm into land, land, Petal, then draw lands and petals to my heart's content and IGG gets Mesmeric Fiended. Game 2 I just ravaged him in the face on turn 2 or 3 with IGG loop.
g3: This was a tough game and it really goes to show how fucking good this deck is. I keep an amazing hand and he Thoughtseizes me and my hand is the following: Rit, CRit, Brainstorm, LED, LED, Chant, Tropical Island. He takes Brainstorm and passes. I draw into a Top and play a single LED because I know he plays Cabal Therapy and am not going to get 2-1ed. I Play Top and pass the turn. He plays Thoughtseize, taking Dark Ritual and a Brainstorm. Upkeep I activate Top and it reveals Chrome Mox, Infernal Tutor, Chain of Vapor. I draw Chrome Mox and leave IT on the top. Play my other LED and Chrome Mox imprinting CRit. Blow up both LEDs for BBBBBB and activate Top to draw IT into the win! I got double Thoughtseized and still won on turn 2 ... just that good.
Overall I did not like this particular configuration but I was REALLY feeling the 3rd Cabal Ritual. I think 6x Protection spells is optimal as is 2x Ponder and 3x Infernal Tutor in the main. This list felt a little too inconsistent and I had to mulligan a lot more than I normally do. This is what I will play in the future and what I would consider a more than optimal list for the DDFT Hybrid:
4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Ponder
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Silence
2x Chrome Mox
1x Tendrils
1x Krosan Grip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
Sideboard
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
2x Krosan Grip
1x Naturalize
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Plains
Even though the changes may seem minor the second list is a lot more consistent and just as fast! If only I could figure out what to cut so I can put in the 3rd Cabal Ritual! As it is this list is spectacular but I just wish I could figure out how to get that 3rd CRit in! It is driving me nuts! Although I do feel the best option is to just leave it alone as I think it has been tweaked as much as it possibly can be!
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Thatīs why i think that Thoughtseize is worse than Duress against ANT. He played 2 Thoughtseize, which means he lost 4 life. Those 4 life are reducing the storm count for the ANT player by 2. Both spells he took from you would have been also Duress targets. And i also think that drawing into the right cards that quickly was quite lucky, but well luck on a consistent basis is skill, eh?
I'm actually playing your exact suggested list with -1 Bayou +1 Tundra.
For the SB, it's a different thing (it's posted up in this page).
How is swarm doing it for you? Seems like a bit redundant with the 6 chants effects already on board, isn't it? When do you side it in, and what do you take out?
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
My mainboard is the same as yours, except for -1 Grip +1 Ponder. I don't really miss the 3th Cabal Rit too much really. I'm considering playing it in the sideboard as a way to speed up the deck a little against aggro. C Rit is also pretty strong against control, and you probably could board out any other accel for it there.
Of course, my land base is a little different. I play:
4 Delta
4 Strand
2 Tundra
2 Sea
1 Scrub
1 Island
1 Plains
I hate the scrubland though, and I'm probably cutting it for a 9th fetchland (U/R or U/G, doesn't really matter anyway (It's probably better to cut a delta for another one of those)).
As for your green splash, you have Grip to fight CB. Why do you think this plan is better than splash red for Pyroblast? I haven't gotten around to testing either option properly so far. Also, why do you play Disenchant over Serenity?
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
Why does he play Disenchant over another K-grip and Cabal?
@flrn: After a mull to 5 twice and quite a few mulligans to 6 throughout the day and losing to hideous draws twice I think a little luck is deserved on occassion, but you also need to know how to play the cards the deck is giving you as it isn't always going to be as easy as double LED + IT.
@GreenOne: I absolutely LOVE the Swarm! Especially when your opponent keeps in terrible cards like Swords just to answer a 2x of or wastes an EE to get rid of it! The redundancy is key, 9 Chant effects! Swarm OWNS the combo mirror and the Merfolk matchup. It is mainly in there for Merfolk because all you have to do is land Swarm and you don't have to worry about anything else since they don't have any kind of real answer to the card which is just great! It also shines in the thresh matchups as well, in particular against Canadian where they waste their burn spells on it rather than you life points, and if they don't have an answer then most likely they will be losing pretty soon!
I side in 2x Swarm against Thresh and Landstill and I bring in 3x in the Merfolk matchup, this is really where he shines, if you don't have a lot of matchups against the fishies I would only run 2. SB varies a little by matchup but this is what I usually do against Merfolk:
-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 IT, -1 Petal and then +3 Swarm +2 DD.
I SB the same against non-CB Blue control except keep in the IT and only board in 2x Swarm.
Against CB Thresh I board like this:
-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 IT, -2 Petal and +2 KGrip, +2 DD, +2 Swarm.
@Bahamuth: I would never cut a Scrubland because I can't think of a situation where I would want 2 Tundras in play rather than Tundra and Scrubland thus having access to black mana and WW. The reason being is I like having access to U/W/B and being able to pay the kicker cost on Orim's Chant if need be.
Green is a LOT better because you don't have to have the answer in your hand when the CB is played. Using the blast plan you HAVE to have an answer in hand to deal with CB otherwise you will barely ever remove it and will NEVER remove it if Top is in play. KGrip is the best answer for CB IMOP, plus you can tutor for it in response and the kill it later on when you are ready to combo off. It is just nice not having to rely on a blast being in my hand when CB is played and then effectively having no way to remove it if I didn't start the game with a blast, and even then, if you are on the draw your blast can still be Dazed!
@lorddotm and Bahamuth: Disenchant is all meta dependent. I encounter every imagineable hate card in my meta because it is so varied and prefer Disenchant because it has an immediate effect and I can tutor for it. I hate Serenity since I have no way to find it (aside from Top and cantrips) and in the matchups where Serenity is good I have had it Oblivion Ringed and KGripped one to many times. Disenchant will always kill something and I can play it as a suprise instant and have the ability to tutor for it.
I also play Disenchant over additional KGrip because of Ad Nauseam. Against aggro decks I will leave in AdN and don't want to stock the deck full of 3 CC disenchants, so I just cut chants and put in Disenchants and bounce for the hate cards and the lower the casting cost the better! I also play a single Naturalize in case I have to tutor up a protection spell and maybe I only have access to either W or G, just nice to have different options available because you never know what kind of jacked up situations you will have to get yourself out of.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Hey everyone,
This will be quite noobish, so please, temper your anger ;) Thanks in advance!
I've been looking for decent Legacy deck for a while, tried to play Counterbalance-Top decks, but they didnt fit in my taste. Finally I got my very own ANT deck done, from the 2nd place at Bazaar of Moxen III tournament. I've did some goldfishing with it and realized I dont really know how to play that one (I was only able to launch off the combo once, with very obvious cards combination for many, many goldfish tests). I was looking this thread and I saw it lacking good deck introduction, for people that yet dont know how to pilot it.
I'd like to read some information, how to play Doomsday, what the hell is 'IGG loop', how to correctly resolve Lion's Eye Diamond, how to play with blue matchups, how to sideboard, what to mulligan and what to not, and so on. The deck is very complex, that while reading the decklists is fun and enjoyable, it doesent help a lot, especially for people new to ANT like me. Of course, I absolutely understand the amount and variety of things involved in correct play with the ANT and that there is no play-it-like-that-to-win-every-time checklist of golden rules.
Thanks for any clues and patience :)
You make Xantid Swarm sounds a little better than it is in my opinion. You seem to state it's a good thing opponents will burn/StP Swarms, but that's not really always the case. If a Tempo Thresh player burns off a Swarm, he essentially just countered your protection with a spell that wouldn't have mattered if Swarm would've been a Chant.
Thank you for posting your sideboard plans. Why exactly do you consider it to be good to board out Ad Nauseam? Why is a more Doomsday-oriented plan better in these matchups?
I think you know too that kicked Chant almost never happens. I don't really think that should be an argument here. I don't see much other reason to have WW in play. Situations where you hold 2 Chant and you absolutely need to cast them both on the same turn (and where you don't have a Petal and Tundra + Sea) are also very unlikely, because you're generally very Daze-vulnerable when you cast the second. I don't see enough reason to need more than 1 white source on the board.
Scrubland gave me lots of mulligans in the past. You can't keep hands with Scrub as only land and some blue cantrips/Mystical Tutor. I think it's better off as a 9th fetchland.
Okay, you summed up a whole lot of reasons to run Grip. I can give you some advantages of Blast too. It's much better when you still run AdN for example, but you seem to board it out, so I guess that's not really relevant to you. Also, Blast doubles as protection when you also have a Chant, which is pretty likely. It's not that unlikely that you can resolve a Blast through CB. CB doesn't have CB + Top that often early in the game anyway.
With the board plan you posted, what are your results vs. CB? How would you estimate your win%? Be realistic please.
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
I'll give you some general tips on how this deck works.
Basically, this deck always wins by first making mana, then playing some kind of tutor to find one of your win conditions, and then using it to produce a lethal Tendrills. I'll go over the options here (The B's represent the mana in your mana pool):
1) Ad Nauseam. This is the easiest option you have. If you're a starting combo player, I suggest you start off with a list that only has AdN and IGG.
Basically, you resolve Ad Nauseam, draw a shitload of cards, play all Petals, Moxes, LEDs, Rituals you found, Tutor up your Tendrills with Infernal Tutor or Mystical Tutor + cantrip, and play it.
One way to go would for example be:
Tap land for Dark Ritual (BBB), Sac Petal for B (BBBB), cast LED, cast Infernal Tutor (BB) saccing LED in response for BBB (BBBBB). You now search for AdN and win from there.
Or you could go:
End of Turn, Mystical Tutor for Ad Nauseam. Draw it in your own turn. Cast Dark Ritual twice (BBBBB) and cast Ad Nauseam, winning from there.
Infernal Tutor and LED make a strong combination in this deck. The idea is that you make some mana by playing some Rituals, then play a LED, and then play Infernal Tutor, saccing LED in response. This results in your hand being empty with 3 more mana available, and a Hellbended Infernal Tutor. This way, LED makes your Infernal Tutor into a Demonic Tutor, and it gives you 3 more mana to play with.
2) IGG: Ill-gotten Gains is another engine you can use to win the game. It's safer than Ad Nauseam, because you don't have the risk of killing yourself in the process, but it loses to graveyard hate and to your opponent having a counter in his graveyard. Here's an example of an IGG-loop:
Tap land, cast Dark Ritual (BBB). Cast threshed Cabal Ritual (BBBBBB) cast LED, cast Petal, cast Infernal Tutor, saccing LED in response (BBBBBBB). You grab Ill-gotten Gains, and cast it (BBB). You return Dark Ritual, LED, Infernal Tutor. Play Dark Ritual (BBBBB), play LED, cast Infernal Tutor saccing LED in response (BBBBBB) and grab Tendrills for 20 damage.
Notice I played a Petal at the start to make storm. Instead, you could've searched for a new Infernal Tutor at the end with the Tutor you returned with IGG. With the new Tutor, you still have enough mana to search for a Tendrills, but you've increased your storm by one.
Also notice that, if you haven't resolved a Chant first, your opponent can get back the counters he already used with your IGG, and use them to counter your Infernal Tutor. Therefore, IGG should only be used against blue decks when you either resolved a Chant, or the opponent has no counters in his graveyard.
3) Doomsday. Doomsday is the hardest engine of the 3. It requires you to build a pile of 5 cards that win you the game. As you might've noticed, Doomsday has no internal option of actually getting to these cards. For that reason, you need another card (Top, Brainstorm or Ponder (or perhaps Infernal Tutor)) to reach the cards. Let's say you have a Top in play.
Cast Dark Ritual(BBB), cast Lotus Petal, cast LED. Now cast Doomsday, making your deck into:
Meditate
Petal
LED
LED
Tendrills.
Now, we had a Top in play, so we tap the Top, and sac LED in respose for blue. We draw Meditate and cast it. You will draw into Top (you put it on top of your library) Petal LED LED. Now cast Petal, sac it for mana and use that to cast your Top, cast LED LED. Now tap Top, saccing both LEDs in response and draw your Tendrills, which you can cast with the mana from LED.
There are tons of different piles to use for Doomsday. Some only work if you have some more cards in your hand, of only if you have a Brainstorm or specific amounts of mana left in your pool. Here is a link to Cheeseburger's and emidln's page with Doomsday piles: http://docs.google.com/View?id=d3hxs7m_16cr3v59c9
I hope this helps. There's much more to be said about how to play this deck, but I feel I've typed enough for a while.
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
