Lol, yeah. Forgot to RTFC before I went suggesting changes just to accomodate Vines of Vastwood.Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
All I really meant was that bending the colors a little bit towards white or green wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, if there were significant gains to be made from shifting slightly away from red. After further investigation, I agree that VoV doesn't count as hugely "significant gains." Hehe.
On the other hand, it seems flexible, and I definitely wouldn't go so far as to say it's worse than Magma Jet. Tempo gains are the type of thing this deck is interested in, but Zoo's approach is often too straight-forward to support much trickery. And as people mention, the kicker is not always necessary, it's just extra gravy. I think the card honestly has potential, but I wouldn't make any crazy cuts to fit it in.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
The point, I imagine, is that it isn't just a pump spell, but acts as a counter to opponents' targeted removal. That buys you time/tempo. If they STP your Goyf and you Vines of Vastwood, you don't lose time having to cast another threat. Also, if it were during your attack phase, it would squeeze through that extra damage and give you the next turn's damage as well, whereas if it were StPed, you'd lose the damage from that turn and the following turn your creature would have summoning sickness. I'm guessing this is why the card is getting attention more than because of the icing-on-the-cake, optional kicker pump effect.
I agree that 2 red sources are much better than two green, but again, the kicker is optional.
Edit: damn it, I'm always too slow.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
The Vines were excellent all day, But they were primarily for the mirror match. The double green is easier than you might think to achieve, and its primarily role is as a protection spell, if they use removal and you have GG in response they can take much much more than they were expecting.
I finished at 5-2-1, one win away from top 8, but unfortunately with one more loss I didnt even make t16, I finished at 22 for the day.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
@baileyarch-vines isn't a pump spell, it's a counter spell that happens to have pump attached. I haven't tested it yet, but I'm looking forward to trying it.
So the kicker is enough to make Avoid Fate playable? It is still a dead draw without any critters out. I could see where the "fetch Savanah" play might hurt you if your playing fireblast , but other than thatit seems fine. I haven't tested it yet, and it could be great. I'm just hesitant about pump spells.
The Do Makers official Thing Sayer.
Is Engeniered Explosives a good sideboard option AGAINS'T zoo?
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
I think that depends on your deck. But I've run it and it's been ok. It's nothing amazing, sometimes you will 2 for 1. Sometimes you will one for one but you spent 2 more mana than they did. It's fine but if I were to play something specifically for zoo I think there are better cards.
I have been meaning to give Zoo a serious try, since I've been frustrated with other decks. So from studying the deck and this thread, I wonder what the exact advantage would be to using vines in a deck like this? My impression is that this deck tends to want to be proactive rather than reactive, and vines is a reactive spell. What would the exact advantage be of using vines over something like, lightning bolt, lightning helix, or swords to plowshares? I'm assuming that if you threw in a couple of vines of the vastwood, it would replace some of those spells rather than a creature.
It would never replace those spells. The spells is it would replace are the last few spells in the deck, probably fireblast. That's where I intend to test it.
What would you guys consider the best tactic for me as a R/b Goblin player to fight Zoo after SBing?
Or more specifically; is Pyrokinesis really good enough vs Zoo. Is it not most times a 2-for-1 since a lot of Zoo's creatures have a toughness of 3?
Goblins is one of zoo's best matchups. I don't think pyrokinesis is really that great. I'm not sure what you should use. Pyro is okay, but there's probably something better.
If you can get to 5 mana then maybe patriarch's bidding?
I don't understand the people in this thread. At all.
It seems like a damn band wagon. Maybe if someone will suggest a new shitty card for the deck, people will start going crazy over that too.
Vines was used in Goyf Sligh if my memory serves me correctly. And it is in fact Avoid Fate with pump!!! Which means, it's a bad card for Zoo. It's situational. that's why we have burn. I could see maybe making the sideboard against, REMOVAL.DEC!
I have class now so i'll finish ranting later.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
The only thing I can come up with is maybe mixing Perish with Pyrokinesis since the bigger creatures are always green. I do play 4 weirdings as well.
@ Jazzycat: I have actually been thinking about that one I might try it out sometime.
I don't understand you. Vines counters targetted removal for G. This is good for a variety of reasons, one of which is the rogue factor. Vines is a new card, so it should be an unexpected card for your opponent. That matters, especially since things like STP are usually critical for the control players survival, especially against Zoo's creatures. I agree with you, that it probably doesn't make every maindeck ever, but thats what the card does. It can't see regular play, because the opponent will start playing around it, significantly weakening the card. I can see Vines being VERY good in some situations/matchups. Save my Tarmogoyf for G? Obviously good sometimes.
You didnt even make a point. Someone does well with the card, and all of a sudden "We're all on the bandwagon!". Clearly it worked for him, so what's the issue?
So what you're saying is we should never talk about trying new cards before dismissing them, so the deck can never improve, because that is far better than occasionally talking about a card that could turn out to be suboptimal.
You're right. I'll never test a new card again.
Thank you. I mean you guys can keep having no critters to target and have dead cards in your hand if you want. I'm gonna keep running burn, and Bolting to the face for the win.
And yes, that's EXACTLY what i'm saying. Jesus Christ, putting words in my mouth means nothing.
I could see the card run in the SB MAYBE! I already said that though, so of course i have no point!
People dismiss Rancor totally nowadays, and this card is very similar. Sure your creature might die with Rancor, but you get it back. With this card you ONLY want to save it for creature removal because there is always the chance you will get 2 for 1. That in itself takes away from the decks gameplan.
And hell yes, Savannah Taiga is worse that Taiga Plateau.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Rancor and Vines are very different, and you know it. Rancor will always open you up to a two for one. Vines will only do that if you're an idiot and walk right into it. I'd only use it as a pump spell if I knew he couldnt kill my guy in respose/ if it was a brutal combat trick (and my guy was dying anyway). Vines saves your creature. When it's saving KOTR/Thoctar/Goyf/Nacatl from STP, its even better than a burn spell. STP is such an important card against this deck that it's logical to look for the simplest solution.
Those of us from NoVa who played Zoo in Philly (there were four of us in total) played a pair of Vines of Vastwood in the sideboard. They were primarily intended to be boarded in against other Zoo decks, and generally did their job pretty well.
The mirror match almost always revolves around drawing, and in turn removing, Tarmogoyfs, Thoctars, and Knights. This is because they are the only creatures large enough to attack profitably, and because they are difficult to remove with burn spells. This is why boarding additional Swords/Path effects is a viable way to improve the matchup.
Vines of Vastwood is another way to gain an edge on this front, since it protects your fatties from your opponent's removal spells. It can also act as a pseudo-removal spell itself, by buffing up a smaller creature to outmatch your opponent's fatty in combat, although such a play can open you up to a two-for-one.
When played intelligently, a Vines will at the very least draw out another removal spell, which will open the door for the next fatty you play. In the best case, an opponent will wait until your attack to attempt to remove your creature (after all, this is often the correct play), and a kicked Vines will totally blow them out. Either way, the card is relevant to what is most important in the matchup.
I understand what you mean. Like i said it's just a SB card. I don't think it's right for the maindeck at all, unless you're expecting all Zoo, creatureremoval.dec, etc.
@troop: Okay so you wouldn't walk into your opponent's spells. Okay you do that. You're slowing the deck down and running it in the main just seems bad. I've already stated in every post about this damn card the word, SIDEBOARD.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
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