Except by killing you.
Bob is not as good as you think in the merfolk MU. Yes the CA helps you either race or deal with their threats but they can easily swarm you with a few guys and if one is a Lord of A its hard to race
For the record, yes, Ponder is better than Stifle in a CB list. Turn 1 Ponder will still set up those turn 2 plays by:Originally Posted by Jujuhawk
1) finding the Bob that you don't have in your opening hand
2) finding protection (Daze/FoW) so you can keep it on the board
3) finding the appropriate mana so you can actually cast it, which is an issue with that unstable mana base
Furthermore if your initial plan failed then Stifle does nothing for you. Ponder will be able to dig for threats or answers. It's also impossible to play around Ponder and make it a useless card like Stifle.
You will continue to have bad match-ups as long as you run cards that are essentially worthless against those bad match-ups. =)
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so if the 4 stifles become ponders and the waste become color producing lands my MU vs Folk will become better? plz tell me how? and what other bad MUs do you think this deck has?
I'm not going to get into the ins and outs of the deck. If you don't care for the list, that's fine, it doesn't offend me. I did however want to touch on one point:
The manabase for this deck is so stable. There have only every been two problems I have had with mana in the deck:
1) The game goes long and they waste all my trops. This got fixed with Zendikar fetch lands and the inclusion of the basic forest.
2) I don't draw lands even with Dark Confidant and Top in play. Well....these things happen.
Besides those two things, I don't think I could realisitically ask for a more stable manabase. The way to beat merfolk with this deck (which, you're right, is a pretty abysmal matchup) is to get them to side in Back to Basics against you. It's so incredibly dead. Read the same analysis from the merfolk player who wrote the report about his GenCon experience. He probably lost that match to me because he sided in Back to Basics.
Seriously, merfolk is a deck that gets played alot. I also think you have a bad goblin matchup, which is also a common deck in the format. That was what i tried to point out. I'm not saying the deck is bad, I only think that this is not the meta for it.
Thats why you play 5 blast's in the sideboard for goblins and zoo decks. I think the mana base is fine. The only deck that CB has trouble with and probally always will is Merfolk. Island walk hurts so much, you have to remove their viles and LOA. It's pretty much a given game match to them for the most part.
Exactly. =)
Ponder finds things. Threats, answers, SB bombs, protection, land (if they try to mana screw you), it doesn't matter. Stifle sits in your hand, and at best it trades 1:1 with a Waste. All other times it does what, null a Vial for a turn?
Either way, Ponder is just one example. You could add a 4th Top for starters.
The only matchups that concern me are Ichorid (because game 1 is so lopsided) and Dragon Stompy simply because of how powerful T1 Moon effects are, especially if they drop it before you could even fetch once.
Fair enough.The manabase for this deck is so stable. There have only every been two problems I have had with mana in the deck:
1) The game goes long and they waste all my trops. This got fixed with Zendikar fetch lands and the inclusion of the basic forest.
2) I don't draw lands even with Dark Confidant and Top in play. Well....these things happen.
Besides those two things, I don't think I could realisitically ask for a more stable manabase. The way to beat merfolk with this deck (which, you're right, is a pretty abysmal matchup) is to get them to side in Back to Basics against you. It's so incredibly dead. Read the same analysis from the merfolk player who wrote the report about his GenCon experience. He probably lost that match to me because he sided in Back to Basics.
The context of what I said, however, was that Ponder does much of the same function as Stifle. One of the prime reasons people were using to promote Stifle was that it helped protect the mana base from Wastelands, and I just wanted to point out that Ponder fulfills a similar role if necessary.
I agree with the blasts part. A plethora of blasts will tear up Goblins especially, and still be extremely solid against Zoo.Thats why you play 5 blast's in the sideboard for goblins and zoo decks. I think the mana base is fine. The only deck that CB has trouble with and probally always will is Merfolk. Island walk hurts so much, you have to remove their viles and LOA. It's pretty much a given game match to them for the most part.
I do not believe, however, that Merfolk is a lost cause. First of all the deck is potent. There is a reason CounterTop is extremely competitive, and it's because sometimes it gets a powerful start and the opponent is locked out from the get-go. You can just get a nuts hand and win.
More importantly however, the deck gains access to a wide variety of bombs from the SB if you choose to use them. While many of the lists in this thread don't have much in the way of fighting Merfolk, the option is there.
It is certainly a taxing match though. Who knows what kind of configuration would be required between main/SB to get the match to 50/50, but even without much effort I don't think it's too far from that. Force them to beat you. =p
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merfolk is not that bad as long as they dont get aether vial down, its a fair match.
obviously you can blow them out also if they have LoA and you have a goyf, they swing, you StP LoA before blockers, block their dude w/ goyf, gg
their nuts hand > your nuts hand unfortunately
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I've never had much trouble with Merfolk. Counter/StP their Lords of Atlantis and stick a Rhox War Monk. They also really hate Natural Order and Firespout.
It's not the easiest matchup, but if you play your cards right you should win it most of the time.
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Sure as hell sounds like fun.
The way you guys are arguing against playing wasteland, you make it sound like you see countertop everysingle game and make it out to be a god combo that the deck must be built around.
Countertop is being grossly overrated here. This deck was good before countertop.
Yes CT is good. But At the end of the day, it's a two card combo that's not a hard lock, or a combo that wins you the game within a turn or two like stiflenought and vampire depths combos do. And no most games you won't see both pieces until well into the midgame.
CB is mostly useless on it's own, top is useful but other two card combos above cost less mana and have one useful card too (stifle). And it's worse than NO. Natural order is a one card combo. You play NO and if your opponent can't answer it asap, you win. There is no reason not to play it if your curve supports it.
So yes I went there CB Top is solid but it's not the god combo you guys make it out to be.
What are you smoking? Countertop is the single most busted combination of two cards in legacy. Countertop wins games you have no business at all of winning. It answers 90% of the cards in the format. Stiflenought is pretty easily answered, as is vampire depths, compared to countertop, because get this, countertop can COUNTER ALL OF ITS ANSWERS, sometimes including grip.
Yes, countertop is that good. It may not seem that good because almost every deck nowadays has a built in plan to stop it. That's like saying "affinity isn't that good in standard because they'll just cast their maindeck oxidize on your ravager." So, I'm afraid you are wrong.
Why did you need to copy paste this from the Bant thread? You're right, there are other cool two card combos that win the game, and balance+top doesn't exactly win you the game. Sometimes combos don't have to win the game instantly. Sometimes combos cause the opponent to get locked down well enough for you to casually win in some other, natural way.
Also, did you notice that you just rolled up into the [DTB] CounterTop thread and bashed Counterbalance Top in a rather foolish manner?
You make ponder sound like the best card in the format when it is a top+cantrip for a turn. It sets you up for stuff but definately doesn't win you games like stifling a fetch will.
To be fair, dragon stompy is terrible, and ichorid is a very swingy deck. It's either totally nuts or you just lose cause people are playing board cards.The only matchups that concern me are Ichorid (because game 1 is so lopsided) and Dragon Stompy simply because of how powerful T1 Moon effects are, especially if they drop it before you could even fetch once.
The problem with ponder, however, is that you are going to be playing ponders in your deck, and they are not even remotely similar to stifle. Stifle can LD them (or protect from waste), stifle random triggers like your own bobs (which can happen) or things like EE.The context of what I said, however, was that Ponder does much of the same function as Stifle. One of the prime reasons people were using to promote Stifle was that it helped protect the mana base from Wastelands, and I just wanted to point out that Ponder fulfills a similar role if necessary.
I do not believe, however, that Merfolk is a lost cause. First of all the deck is potent. There is a reason CounterTop is extremely competitive, and it's because sometimes it gets a powerful start and the opponent is locked out from the get-go. You can just get a nuts hand and win.
More importantly however, the deck gains access to a wide variety of bombs from the SB if you choose to use them. While many of the lists in this thread don't have much in the way of fighting Merfolk, the option is there.
It is certainly a taxing match though. Who knows what kind of configuration would be required between main/SB to get the match to 50/50, but even without much effort I don't think it's too far from that. Force them to beat you. =p
The matchup is really awful, and is worse when they are playing stifle. Counterbalance/top is slow and doesn't do anything if they have vial (thank god they don't have merfolk lackey), and even if it does, it's hard to counter 3 drops with so few 3's. To beat them you really need to draw multiple removal spells and maybe a deed (in UBG that is). The deck doesn't have access to firespout or any wrath effect other than deed, and deed is kind of slow and vulnerable.
foulq, Uh huh, this deck has no problem whatsoever consistently being able to stop 3cc answers, or grip. I've played with and against this deck enough times to know that's an outright lie. It's not that easy or consistent for you to resolve it and it's not that difficult for your opponents to escape from the two card lock.
It's a two card combo where you have to find and resolve both pieces. Assuming there isn't already a Quasali or seal or trygon on the table. And even when you do, there's plenty of ways for opponents to shut it down.
Progenitus is harder to stop and it wins the game in two turns guarenteed, same with the other combos, they must be stopped asap or you lose. CBtop is just a soft lock.
I'm not saying it's not a great card but you guys are hyping it up way too much in thus recent debate over wasteland. For example the matchup claims where you wrote that every deck but merfolk and d stompy is positive bc of countertop is false.
Okay almighty Jon Stewart, then where are you are results? Where are these NO decks racking up results in every which direction? I search deckcheck for decks containing both top and counterbalance, and I get so many (740) that it CAN'T EVEN DISPLAY THEM ALL THERE ARE SO MANY.
Countertop is a huge player in every major tournament and top eights almost every big tournament. Natural Order is a fringe archetype, currently has less recent top eights in major events than freaking stax. That's right, stax.
This is magic, no deck is perfect, so yes grip can answer the counterbalance most of the time, but by then it is often too late and the card advantage it produces (both of your cute combos produce NONE) has already put the countertop player way far ahead.
I take you back to my affinity argument. Why are people playing krosan grip in the first place? You make an argument that "counterbalance dies to grip" well no crap, WHY DO YOU THINK PEOPLE PLAY IT? Countertop is the most dominant interaction in legacy right now. Everyone in the entire world and probably more are against you.
Where are these NO decks racking up results in every which direction?
Countertop is a huge player in every major tournament and top eights almost every big tournament. Natural Order is a fringe archetype, currently has less recent top eights in major events than freaking stax. That's right, stax.
Ok. This is a mediocre argument because Progenitus was printed later than all key cards of Staxx. Probably there just aren't so many players, who want to give this deck a try and rather play an etablished archetype. For me the deck works great. (I also noticed two NO decks in the Top 16 in Philly last week. ok ok that's right staxx won -.-)
This is magic, no deck is perfect, so yes grip can answer the counterbalance most of the time, but by then it is often too late and the card advantage it produces (both of your cute combos produce NONE) has already put the countertop player way far ahead.
If your opponent is able to assemble a strong offense in the first turns, CB will not be able to turn the game around. This is what can happen against tribal decks and Zoo. You need to slow them down with a blocker/removal before CB/Top takes care of the upcoming threats. Aether Vial can also fuck you up hard if not countered. By the way, there are less answers to Progenitus than CB, if played at all.
Countertop is the most dominant interaction in legacy right now.
Totally agreed. But when you combine two retarded combos in one deck, you have more options to change the gamestate drastically to your favor.
If one strategy fails, it's nice to have a good plan B.
Here's the list I've been playing the last months (only changed SB after my tournament report):
[My Decklist] (60)
Lands: (18)
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Flooded Strand
2x Windswept Heath
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Dryad Arbor
Creatures: (13+1)
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Rhox War Monk
1x Trygon Predator
1x Progenitus
“The infamous CB/Top Part”: (8)
4x Counterbalance
4x Sensei’s Divining Top
Other Spells: (21)
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Natural Order
SB: (15)
1x Trygon Predator
2x Krosan Grip
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Hydroblast
2x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Path to Exile
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Empyrial Archangel
I really like the playstyle of this deck. Against other aggro-control or combo you have CB/top to put you in a good position. Against an aggro deck without counters you just cast NO for the win, before they build up a deadly swarm. Natural Order is a no-brainer just like Counter/Top is.
Last edited by God_Dethroned; 10-16-2009 at 09:20 AM.
The point is that Ponder won't lose you games like Stifle will. ;)
I'm not going to head into a point-by-point an analysis. You already know the pros and cons, and while you gain the ability to randomly win because your opponent is mana screwed for a few turns you give up a LOT if that fails.
In a deck that is control by nature, and without a reliable way to clear the way for its creatures, the tempo gain of Stifle/Wasteland is marginal. What good is an "extra turn" if you still can't swing through their blockers? Notice how Tempo Thresh packs more than twice as much spot removal as pretty much any list in this thread...
The poor synergy with CounterTop is just icing on the cake. If you don't want to run Ponder, then don't. You can start by running 4 Top though. =)
For UBG yes, the options are limited against Merfolk.The matchup is really awful, and is worse when they are playing stifle. Counterbalance/top is slow and doesn't do anything if they have vial (thank god they don't have merfolk lackey), and even if it does, it's hard to counter 3 drops with so few 3's. To beat them you really need to draw multiple removal spells and maybe a deed (in UBG that is). The deck doesn't have access to firespout or any wrath effect other than deed, and deed is kind of slow and vulnerable.
I'd say the best bet for a strict board clearer in UBG is Infest. It's not clunky or vulnerable like Deed, and its effect is a full turn faster to boot. The flip side is that BB1 may be harder to get than Deed's BG1, which is already awkward enough.
White and red versions are of course drastically different, and approach the matchup in an entirely different matter. I don't have much experience with a UGW or UGR build to comment on it though.
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I would just add, as a flip side, that there will be situations where Infest just won't be enough to clear the board given the number of lords some decks can run (e.g. Merfolk). Maybe a split of X/1 Infest/Deed would be the way to go for UGb in an aggro meta?
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+1 to FoulQ's points. CounterTop shuts off 2/3 of the format. It's as good as the "hype" claims, if not better. Every deck's number one concern is "how do I beat CounterTop decks?" and all good decks have some kind of answer to that question beyond "hope they can't find both pieces".
The only issue I have with the NO/CBTop lists is that you're forced to run Noble Hierarch which is a relatively weak card. In a vaccuum, Hierarch is a strong card for sure, but relative to alternative permanents in that slot (Dark Confidant, Vedalken Shackles, Sower, even V. Clique), NH is very weak. In most CounterTop lists, every permanent in that deck is either a bomb or a card that drastically improves multiple difficult matchups (Trygon/RWM). Hierarch is neither of these, and I feel like the tradeoff of giving up 4 (really 8) slots for the ability to go "No Force? 2 turn clock" isn't worth it. Especially when non-NO CounterTop lists don't need the Progentius combo to make them one of the best decks in the format.
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