[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Humphrey]

Im toying around with some monored build, too
here is what it looks like

// Lands
4 [MOR] Mutavault
17 [CST] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
4 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus


As u can see, i run a straight forward aggro-plan. I cut all utility creatures along with matron. Matron is really to slow in this build. Also i run Mutavaults over Wasteland to get even more dmg to Opp Head. Runs really smooth so far.

[Gibsonmac]

no matron scares me, I've never seen a reason to run less than 4... looks strong otherwise, my take would be -1 piledriver, -3 removal utility, +4 matron...

posts testing results, looks solid, maybe matron isn't necessary anymore?

[FoulQ]

@ Gibsonmac: I'm a little wary of boarding out piledrivers against Nassiftop. That deck can sometimes have some strong hate cards against us (EPlague) that I want to end the game fairly quickly, which piledriver helps with. If we go along with the theory that chieftain does the same thing, then I can see where you are coming from. Is this your justification for boarding out piledrivers, because chieftain fulfills a similar role? I also am wary of boarding out warchiefs because he is warchief, but is the justification here that 8 haste effects is overkill, and that without a lot of piledrivers warchief becomes somewhat weaker? If so then maybe I'll test this out. I don't want to board out any more than 1 SGC if I am playing 8 lackeys, however: SGC is so so good against this deck (and the game often goes late), and I think mathematically the gain from dropping an SGC off a lackey is worth having him occasionally clog my hand (although that is much rarer with only 2).

Also, I'm boarding in pyrokinesis too against dredge, I think, so I will probably have to board out more than just what you suggested. I see in the ichorid thread they often board out LED, not sure if that is common practice or not because this deck isn't played too much here, so I don't know. This is a tough one for me to crack.

@ Humphrey: You are not playing goblins. The following 4 cards must be played in every goblin list to be considered goblins: matron, ringleader, vial, lackey. Debatably warchief, mountain, and wasteland. That is an entirely different deck, as you can no longer rely on the deck being classified as a "consistent aggro" deck, instead, a "fast aggro" deck, and there are a kajillion other decks in the format that do that much, much, better than goblins. With the prevalence of creature removal in the set, I think the build will do extremely poorly. To be honest, I wouldn't even bother testing that deck, if you want to play a fast aggro deck, play zoo.

Matron is probably the third best card in the deck behind aether vial and goblin ringleader. Mainly because matron fetches goblin ringleader most of the time :P

Please don't cut the deck's core engine.

@ Forbiddian: I completely agree. I think Kiki is a bad play. I wouldn't recommend going to 3 SGC and 1 Kiki however, as that is way big amount of 4 drops and will hurt the deck's consistency. I also don't like the argument that Kiki is better now because of instigator, because the deck's ultimate goal is not just to connect with lackeys. Otherwise we'd be seeing builds with 4 weirdings and 4 stingscourgers all around, but I've never really seen anyone do that successfully. It also disappoints me to see that you posted in the merfolk thread you think this is a bad deck. I would have to disagree with that assessment.

[Gibsonmac]

@FoulQ: definitely keep at least 2 SGC in, I would probably play 7-8 haste chief's (Def 4 chieftain because the +1/+1), and I was thinking between 2-3 pile drivers. he does end the game fast, but I think maxing out the chief's is a better strategy, also pile driver is 2cc, an easy target for spell snare and counterbalance (all lists I've seen run the a lot of 2cc) where the chief's are a little safer at 3cc, that is mostly where I was coming from with dropping some piledrivers post board... I think the goal would be end the game as quickly as possible, the haste chief's fulfill that role pretty well.

Boarding out warchief was to make sure you get 4 chieftain (if space is needed) ideally run all 8, if not I'd run 3 warchief 4 chieftain

[MEATROCKET]

I've liked all the absurd things Kiki + Lightning Crafter can do together. Getting both in play against zoo (an admittedly difficult task) usually seals the game, which I can't really say about any other two cards in the deck. I have both of them in a list with 3 SGC, because he is that good, but I have only 2 Piledrivers, 2 Stingscourgers, 3 WI, and 3 Chieftain.

I've like Kiki every time I've seen him, and he never felt win-more. I will cut him and Lightning Crafter, though, just to see if consistency improves (which would be amazing, because it's incredibly consistent as-is).

So I'm not completely sold on Kiki+Crafter, but I suggest you at least try them if you haven't.

[Humphrey]

Matron is only good, after a sweeper in this build, because you play only 4of´s. And thats only if you overextended after a Ringleader.
I didnt miss it so far.
But I agree with Lackey, Vial, Ringleader as core

[Forbiddian]

@ Forbiddian: I completely agree. I think Kiki is a bad play. I wouldn't recommend going to 3 SGC and 1 Kiki however, as that is way big amount of 4 drops and will hurt the deck's consistency. I also don't like the argument that Kiki is better now because of instigator, because the deck's ultimate goal is not just to connect with lackeys. Otherwise we'd be seeing builds with 4 weirdings and 4 stingscourgers all around, but I've never really seen anyone do that successfully. It also disappoints me to see that you posted in the merfolk thread you think this is a bad deck. I would have to disagree with that assessment.

Goblins has historically been the worst-performing deck to beat in terms of matchwin %. When I used to run a data mine, it was performing sub-.400 on average in top 8 play, compared to Dreadstill (at the time, the strongest deck, it was winning around 80% of its matches), and Threshold even was winning 60%.

I reran the data mine, and goblins has been performing extremely well recently, with nearly a 60% match win for the last 120 recorded matches! The changes that have happened to Goblins over the last three months have been huge improvements, so congrats to everyone here for making Goblins into a deck that can get to the top 8 and beat the top decks in the format.

And I definitely withdraw what I said about Goblins, it was based on obsolete data. I'll have to put my playtesting shoes back on and see how Goblin's matchups stand in light of new changes.

[caenel]

I've been following the discussion on Goblins for some time now, and really wonder what's the conscensus about mono-red Goblins or Rx Goblins. As I see it, mono-red Goblins would be more aggressive (slightly) than the Rx Goblins versions. This is how I currently see it:

Mono-red Goblins:
- more aggressive than Rx builds (except maybe RG Goblins)
- less versatility than other builds (no artifact/enchantment control)
- more conditional creature control (Stingscourger only bounces and Gempalm has problems taking big hitters down solo)

RG Goblins:
- still very aggressive build
- has good artifact/enchantment control with K-grip/Hooligan
- same creature control as mono-red
- Ringleader becomes a little less usefull (as it can't hit K-grip)

RW Goblins:
- a little less aggressive with the W splash
- added benefit of good artifact/enchantment removal post board
- better creature removal with Swords
- Ringleader becomes a little less usefull (cannot hit Swords)

RB Goblins:
- seems almost as aggressive as normal mono-red Goblins
- shares the lack of artifact/enchantment removal
- good creature removal that is a Goblin card (Warren Weirding)
- great utility creature in the big 5/3 prowl hitter (name escapes me atm)
- can play recursion with Boggart Aunty

RU Goblins:
- loses a lot of aggressivenes
- gains a card draw, but Goblins don't need that (have Ringleader)


RU seems unplayable, RW seems sub-par with RG (for artifact/enchantment control) or RB (for creature control). This leaves the RG, RB or mono-red option open.
At the moment I am leaning towards the RB option, because of the extra creature removal and slightly better matchup against combo. I just need to figure out one thing: what do you guys do against Moat/Humility? These cards really seem to screw up the mono-R and RB matchup.

Alright, that's how I see it atm, comment on my flawed vision are greatly appreciated (as well as possible sideboards to use)

[Humphrey]

If u read the last pages u had seen different decklists including sideboards. Also options for handling moat and humility are mentioned (Anarchy and Squad, also Crafter and SGC)

[Gibsonmac]

Mono-red Goblins:
- more aggressive than Rx builds (except maybe RG Goblins)
- less versatility than other builds (no artifact/enchantment control)
:

Mono has goblin tinkerer for artifact removal... just as versatile as tin-street... mostly go mono for stability v. stifle/wasteland and improving consistency.... splashes are obsolete. look through the last few pages to see more on the topic

[P.S.]

So what are you all bringing in and taking out for the Zoo match-up? Seems pretty bad to me after the last couple of days.

[arebennian]

Search Eldariel's posts for his thoughts on the matchup.

[Tacosnape]

Things that help against Zoo:

1. Mogg War Marshal
2. Swords to Plowshares
3. Not playing Goblins.

Seriously, though, the tempo here is everything. You can play a long game with Zoo if and only if they don't damage you too badly on your way there. A single War Marshal can act like a 9-15 point lifegain for 1R if it triple chumps while you stabilize and ramp up goblinage. There's absolutely no way for Zoo to prevent War Marshal from doing what you want it to do very effectively - buy time. If you don't maindeck War Marshals and you anticipate Zoo, they're seriously worth taking a look at for a sideboard option.

I've also found having a 1-drop removal spell helps tremendously. Swords is very multi-talented here. It clears their 1-drops (So Nacatl won't thwack you for four on turn two when Pridemage exalts him), clears their blockers, and clears them permanently, which is more than any other option of removal can guarantee.

[Gibsonmac]

Things that help against Zoo:

1. Mogg War Marshal
2. Swords to Plowshares
3. Not playing Goblins.

Seriously, though, the tempo here is everything. You can play a long game with Zoo if and only if they don't damage you too badly on your way there. A single War Marshal can act like a 9-15 point lifegain for 1R if it triple chumps while you stabilize and ramp up goblinage. There's absolutely no way for Zoo to prevent War Marshal from doing what you want it to do very effectively - buy time. If you don't maindeck War Marshals and you anticipate Zoo, they're seriously worth taking a look at for a sideboard option.

I've also found having a 1-drop removal spell helps tremendously. Swords is very multi-talented here. It clears their 1-drops (So Nacatl won't thwack you for four on turn two when Pridemage exalts him), clears their blockers, and clears them permanently, which is more than any other option of removal can guarantee.

wouldn't PtE be better in the match up? or even lightning bolt to take out an early nacatl? then you can stay mono red

[Illissius]

How about Goblin Burrows to go with Instigator?

[Humphrey]

If it would produce R, sure. But as a 1of its to random and more u dont wanna run, cuz u need much RR

[Gibsonmac]

How about Goblin Burrows to go with Instigator?

More colorless mana=bad news... maybe a 2x in place of port in a 17mtn 4waste 2port build (FoulQ's mana base for instance)

try it out... seems to be too mana intensive for it to be abused, could be wrong though, I've never tried it

[neckfire]

is the benefit of playing mono red worth the loss of snuff out and some of the good goblins from shadowmoor and the rest?i do not play goblins but my friend swears by them so i do not know the benefits and risk i just watch him play alot.

[Gibsonmac]

is the benefit of playing mono red worth the loss of snuff out and some of the good goblins from shadowmoor and the rest?i do not play goblins but my friend swears by them so i do not know the benefits and risk i just watch him play alot.

What good goblins? you don't need to splash black for snuff out, you just pay 4 life, there are better cards for the slots it takes up... mono red is better for stability and consistency especially against thresh/tempo decks

[Humphrey]

What good goblins? you don't need to splash black for snuff out, you just pay 4 life, there are better cards for the slots it takes up... mono red is better for stability and consistency especially against thresh/tempo decks

u need a swamp to do so

but the only good B goblins are warren weirding and Earwig Squad. Both are good, but not absolutely neccessary