Dude -- did you read my post?Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Actually I think Taco just summed up your and my post put together :-P. But whatever. It's all about how you want to play the deck.
I just wanted to say that countering select cantrips in a matchup like storm combo can be very rewarding if planned correctly. If you let them sculpt their hand and wait for them to go off, its already too late. If you give them enough time, they WILL be able to find the necessary resources to play around Daze and Cursecatcher + whatever permission you're holding in your hand. You have to force them to combo out, not on their term, but on yours.
Pressure (e.i: putting them on a clock) has to be applied immediately. If not, they will just slow roll you.
Speaking of, what are the best methods of dealing with Storm Combo with this deck? I'm admittedly terrible at playing with Storm Combo so I don't learn the deck inside and out, and therefore I'm only average playing against it. I don't enjoy it, and I don't take the time to figure it out, so in tournaments I just tend to overcompensate for it and absolutely steamroll it, or not compensate for it all and hope to not face it. In a blue aggro deck where I've already got Force/Daze/Cursecatcher/Wasteland (Wasteland's good against Storm Combo now, right?), I figure I've got a decent fighting chance but after forciny myself to test the match preboard (I went 7-5), I figure I probably need a little more ammunition if I know I'm going to face it.
I know if I'm splashing White I've got a ton of options (Canonist, Mage, Chant, etc.), but what are mono blue's best SB options at this point? I'm looking for things that aren't useless in other matchups. I also run Misdirections main in my blue build, which is fair against Orim's Chant in a pinch.
Between Force, Daze, Cursecatcher, Stifle, and Wasteland... I'd say simply apply enough pressure against Storm Combo and you'll be fine. They clearly cannot go off early with that sort of disruption, and as long as you clock them fast enough, they can't sculpt a strong enough hand to go off. If you really want to board something that is mildly useful elsewhere, and you're strictly monoblue, try Chalice.
Stifle. Stifle their fetches (if it is ANT or DDFT) or if your other control forces them to go off unprotected then stifle their storm. I wouldn't sideboard them but I've ALWAYS have been an ad ocate for them main.
Also don't forget that every bit helps, and if you have sideboard relic of progenitus handy then you have a way to shut down IGG loop and cabal rit. Propaganda is good if you think they will empty the warrens.
Quantity over quality is a good way to sideboard against them in my experience. You can side out reejery or sovereign since you don't need to improve your creatures to beat with them.
There are many ways Merfolk can combat storm. The problem is dedicating sideboard slots to this effect.
Chalices of the Void set @ 0 are an effective way to put pressure on the storm player. It is true they can win through it, but it costs them time to find an answer. That could be the window opportunity you needed to prevent them from Ad Nauseam-ing from a relatively safe life total or looping Ill-Gotten Gains for the win. Against a deck like TES this may be difficult since the do carry a heavy arsenal of artifact hate that will be boarded in or wished for.
As for other Storm combo decks especially those that rely on SDT (DD/FT Hybrid, NLS, even ANT to some extent) to sift though their library, Pithing Needle becomes a valuable asset. It makes it much more difficult to find protection, acceleration and Tutors.
I recommend that you guys read the other threads. Try and test out the very deck you are trying to beat. This way, you can hear both sides of the story. Making yourself aware of how each player see's their cards and makes decision based on the game state.
Hi all, Here is the list I'm testing now... I try to put maindeck 3 Relic vs Tarmo, Lavamancer, Stalker, that are also a good solution vs Reanimator (More frequent in my meta), Loam and Dredge...
I take out 1 Standstill, but I'm not sure yet of this decision:
Draw3/pichable Vs 3x1 Draw -> Better -1 Daze???
I see also the rising problem of lavamancers + ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh + "Steal-Creat" like Vedalken or threads, so I decide to put 2 Kira Main-deck.
The problem now seems to be Goblin, but I try to put 4 Hydro+2 Jitte+ eventually 2 echo in side...
The side is build vs Plague, vs Baseruption.deck, the 2 Echo seems to be very versatile, but I'm thinking about wipe-away... What do you think about that?
Too much creat?
// Lands
12 [DD2] Island (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MOR] Mutavault
// Creatures
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [M10] Merfolk Sovereign
2 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [DD2] Daze
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [//] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [MI] Mind Harness
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [US] Annul
SB: 4 [OV] Hydroblast
Vs Storm: Can Extract could be a good answer? Vs Ant probably yes, but vs wish-based.deck no...
Standard number of creatures is ~23 with Mutavaults. You're running 26 counting the Mutavaults.
Anyway, I don't understand having all four Mutavaults but only 3 Standstill. One of the best arguments for running all four manlands is that you have a better chance of winning the Standstill battle, putting pressure on quickly to take advantage of the timewalks if your opponent lets you wait it out, etc.
I don't understand having only 3 Standstill at any rate, they're great in multiples most of the time. Standstilling after another Standstill is an extremely powerful play.
The three Relics are very strong in the right meta, but don't be fooled into thinking that they're great against Zoo.
You mentioned Tarmogoyf and Grim Lavamancer (the only two Zoo cards with GY dependence). But against Zoo, it's really not a good response. You only need one or two Grim activations to swing the tide of battle, and the Zoo player can usually bring Goyf back up to 3/4 at instant speed by saccing a land and bolting a creature.
Relic is much better against the Goyfs in Thresh variants, where they can't just stick creatures in the yard, so you're guaranteed Goyf is at most 2/3 in combat right after a relic pop. Also thresh variants dig more and generally play more Goyfs. Of course, in those matchups you can usually Islandwalk your way to victory.
I'm not saying it's a bad card. Relic is obviously one of the best cards in the game against Storm combo (Cabal Ritual is critical, so is Igg loop), Ichorid, Reanimator, Loam, etc. etc. Relic is a great card, and I generally try to maindeck one or two in any metagame, I'm just saying it's not an answer to Zoo.
It's possible to metagame to beat Goblins. This is especially true since recent changes have caused Goblin players to cut Piledrivers down to 2, maybe 3 copies (and some completely cut). BEB and Hydroblast are great cards in this matchup.
But really, the default percentage of Merfolk vs. Goblins is like 30%. Yeah, with a really dedicated board and probably some MD slots as well, you could get it to like 60%, but it'll cost you a lot of board slots, that I think are better used elsewhere.
You can generally rely on the fact that Goblins is a bad deck, so after a few rounds in a Swiss tournament, you won't run into very many.
Call me crazy but I'm thinking about a black splash.
Lands (20):
4x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
4x Wasteland
4x Mutavault
Creatures (18):
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Merrow Reejerey
2x Merfolk Sovereign
Spells (22):
4x Aether Vial
3x Stifle
4x Daze
3x Standstill
4x Smother
4x Force of Will
SB:
3x Pithing Needle
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Hydroblast
3x Thoughtseize
3x Snuff Out
2x Tombstalker
Why Smother? For one more mana and one less casting cost you can steal a creature with threads? I understand STP as it costs 2 mana less and can deal with any creature in the game, but smother? I just don't get it.
Assuming you want to be able to deal with goblins at all, wouldn't adding engineered plague to your board be a good idea? Also, I might think about thoughtseize maindeck to let you get rid of threats/cards you can't deal with.
Speaking as someone who keeps trying to make the black splash work, Snuff Out's the reason you want to do it. This gives you Team America's freecast suite (Force, Daze, Snuff), allowing you to spend all of your mana on casting Merfolk, swinging with Mutavaults, etc.
The downsides of Snuff Out is that it doesn't help much against Zoo and that it's terrible against black, but if you're going to splash for Smother? You really are just better off with STP and white. 2 is more mana than this deck can spend on a splashed removal spell.
I wanted to go with a black splash because from what I've seen, White mainly gives me removal (StP) and Green mainly gives me a fatty (Goyf), why not get both with Black (Snuff Out + Tombstalker)? I lose Absolute Law or Krosan Grip, but I do also gain Thoughtseize (which should try to find a home MD) and Engineered Plague (which should also be in my list).
Regarding Smother, I suppose I built the list wrong initially. Should it be Snuff Out MD and Smother SB? As for why I'm running both, my impression from testing against Zoo is that the best answer is removal removal removal and since I obviously can't run sweepers, I'll just run more spot removal. In my testing, I actually haven't noticed a difference between effectiveness of white removal and black removal, but Tombstalker is a random blowout when it hits the table (again, removal + fatty). Snuff Out doesn't hurt as much as you might think (or at least in my testing so far).
In regards to Thread, I really dislike that card. I've tried to like it but I just can't. I've always preferred straight up removal (they can always blow it up with Pridemage) and it's somewhat slow.
As for Thoughtseize in MD... switch Seizes and Stifles? I think the question is do I want to Seize T1 or Stifle T1? I think Seize.
I'm not saying don't go ahead and try it, but the problem that you're not noticing is that, for the purposes of use in this deck, Goyf > Tombstalker, and (almost automatically) StP > Smother.
Tombstalker is just not going to work for you, because it's going to be incredibly slow in this deck. Also, having to get two mana of your splash color is a deal-breaker, what with this being Legacy, a format where like 85% of the decks out there try to actively disrupt your mana production. I think that at the very least, to get two black mana, you're going to have to cut a few colorless producers like Mutavault and Wasteland, both of which this deck gets amazing use out of. And you're gonna need to add a couple more fetches... So by the time you tinker with it enough to reliably be able to produce BB, your mana base is probably going to look like ass. Not to mention that you need like 5-6 cards in your graveyard to be able to play him for a reasonable price to begin with. Goyf is an awesome two-drop, and you don't have to do quite so much setup to be able to play the card.
As far as Smother, I find it a little funny that someone who says they don't like Threads of Loyalty (I'm guessing partly because of its restriction as to what it can target)... wants to use Smother. I mean, yeah, Swords and Path to Exile both have their drawbacks, but if you're in a meta where you want removal, the white splash is really attractive, because you can maindeck 4 Swords and sideboard 4 Paths... brutal.
So I guess my main argument is that black gives you a worse creature than green, and worse removal spells than white. If I personally wanted to have it both ways so badly, I would mess around with just splashing a little bit of green and a little bit of white.
Just playing devil's advocate here; I totally wish I could get behind blue/black Merfolk just for the inherent cool-factor, but I just don't think it's giving you what you need from your splash.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Its been a 3-4 weeks since i've used merfs in our place since our meta was filled with red splash and its really hard to get a win in our meta using merfs. Gobs is more visible aswell. Warren Instigator is a very dangerous card.
In my exprience i don't find it hard to win against threshold decks, thus i don't feel the need for relic of progenitus mainboard, the problem i always encounter are decks that packs tons of removal normally red (bolt, fire / ice, pet, etc.) and creatures that comes out fast and fat like zoo.
For the black splash i think its okay and would work in certain meta. Cards i want to see main board for me are:
4 thoughtseize 2-3 extirpate 3 dark confidant 4 smother
As for kira i haven't tried him.
Just wondering since merfs doesn't play the mana disruption package wasteland + stifle , would cutting wasteland and adding mishra's factory a good move to make the deck more agressive and making standstill more effective
Actually, it's mostly because I dislike creature stealing and prefer straight up removal.
That might work out a lot better, actually. That mana base would look like crap, though...So I guess my main argument is that black gives you a worse creature than green, and worse removal spells than white. If I personally wanted to have it both ways so badly, I would mess around with just splashing a little bit of green and a little bit of white.
This is probably true. I have a lot of testing to do, both with the black splash and with the alternatives.Just playing devil's advocate here; I totally wish I could get behind blue/black Merfolk just for the inherent cool-factor, but I just don't think it's giving you what you need from your splash.
I thought mana disruption was a key part of Merfolk...Just wondering since merfs doesn't play the mana disruption package wasteland + stifle , would cutting wasteland and adding mishra's factory a good move to make the deck more agressive and making standstill more effectiveI know I run Wastelands and Stifles at least.
Random thought: why doesn't anyone run Cold-Eyed Selkie?
Because Cold-Eyed Selkie is 3 mana for a 1/1 when you're playing defense, and it's 3 mana for a 1/1 when your opponent doesn't have Islands.
It's very powerful in some matchups. Very powerful. Even if your opponent Bolts it or Sends it Farming, it's not too terrible for you, since Bolt would have knifed a Lord or something just as good anyway, but if your opponent is playing non-blue, he's just awful.
He might be a bit better in UW (although the board is tighter), because you can actually remove enemy creatures and then swing in. But against like Zoo or Goblins or The Rock or anything something if you're mono-U, he's definitely the worst card in the deck.
Black also gives access to Perish. That could be fun.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Hibernation is similar. It's in color, costs the same, is instant. But it doesn't destroy creatures. Sometimes, an end of turn Hibernation is enough of a tempo boost to win though. I've used it against Pernicious Deeds before, which sounds terrible, but it bought me a turn.
I don't run Stifle anymore. I usually run 2 Jitte and have 2 open slots where it usually is. It's mostly because Stifle is so narrow here :(.
Perish, who cares? We already beat green and blue. It's red in the color pie that we need help with. I'm not adding any color unless I know it boosts my game against red. Green does this with goyf, White does this with absolute law. Besides, if you want to kill goyf, use threads (2-1!). If you want to kill progenitus/elves, use hibernation. They're both as good as perish in those situations.
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