[Deck] Zoo

[Svenyboy]

Heey,
I have a question to Countryside Crusher:
Why plays nobody Countryside Crusher in Zoo? If you have 3 mana in play you won't get more mana and he would be the biggest creature in play. Furthermore, he synergies with KotR if you play him. This is the reason why I asked for Countryside Crusher in Zoo (not Goyf Sligh).
Thanks for your help.
greets.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Heey,
I have a question to Countryside Crusher:
Why plays nobody Countryside Crusher in Zoo? If you have 3 mana in play you won't get more mana and he would be the biggest creature in play. Furthermore, he synergies with KotR if you play him. This is the reason why I asked for Countryside Crusher in Zoo (not Goyf Sligh).
Thanks for your help.
greets.

Well, first problem is that his synergy with knight can be completely discounted because you only have room for two three drops in the deck. Is he really better than thoctar or knight? You'd have to test him out and see. I myself do not know because I have never tried him, but I don't feel like he's really good enough. He eats a lightning bolt when he comes into play, and doesn't do battle with goyf until he's been down for a turn or three. He's probably really good with library though. If you test him, let us know how it goes.

[umbowta]

He's probably really good with library though.

I think you're right on this point...but other than being a cutesy two card combo there are two libraries in the deck and, limiting yourself to two three drops, two Crushers. The probability of abusing the cutesy combo is less than pissing into the wind and staying dry.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Hey, for those of us running KoTR, has anyone considered running a barbarian ring, similar to our use of horizon canopy? As a tutorable efect, it could be pretty good to get uncounterable removal or final burn spell, and since it produces our main color and comes in untapped it wouldn't disrupt the mana base too much. It may be difficult to get to threshold in builds with lavamancer, but I'm not sure how difficult. I think going to try it as a singleton over my tenth fetch at my next tournament and see how it goes.

[Madmaniac21]

Has anyone given thought to hidden herd over Kird Ape?

I'm interested in the argument as to why it's not considered.

EDIT: Also, any changes for CB/Landstill heavy meta?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Has anyone given thought to hidden herd over Kird Ape?

I'm interested in the argument as to why it's not considered.

My first guess is just that he's a horrible top-deck. Late game it's going to be a 1 costing enchantment that gives the opponent another reason to not drop non-basics (he already has one since we run PoP). Early game against a few decks (Merfolk, mono-colored U, W, or B control) it will be up to the opponent whether they want to turn it into a creature.

That is a big price to pay for the 1 power difference, even if it can grow goyf.

[Gibsonmac]

Has anyone given thought to hidden herd over Kird Ape?

I'm interested in the argument as to why it's not considered.

EDIT: Also, any changes for CB/Landstill heavy meta?

Kird ape is strictly better, for reasons mentioned above...

@CB/Landstill heavy: Run more shusher/grip in the side, or if it's really heavy, put a couple shusher main, don't know your list, so I can't say what to cut.

[mackaber]

Yo, I just dropped a proof that sideboarded games are more than twice as important as non-sideboarded games.

If you just think about it in terms of raw # of games played instead of looking at the matchwin percentage, then you'll think, erroneously, that pre-boarded games are 2/3rds to 1/2 as important as boarded games (i.e. > 1/2 as important as boarded games), but they're actually less than half as important as boarded games to the overall match win %, even though they make up 1/2 to 2/3rds of the games played.

So another way to look at it: Even though you're playing less than twice as many sideboarded games as non-sideboarded games, the sideboarded games collectively contribute more than twice as much to determining who wins the match overall.

I'm sure there'll be some way to abuse that knowledge. Either practice sideboarded games more (barely anyone does this), practice boarding itself (very few people do this or really have a good grasp of what to board even in common MUs), or make changes to the maindeck and sideboard to perhaps sacrifice maindeck play in one matchup to increase your sideboarded play in another matchups.


But I responded generally to a post from a guy who was discounting the contribution of sideboarded games.

Just wanted to point out that from a statistical point of view what you are claiming here is absolute rubbish. Every game you play contributes equally (1/2 or 1/3) to winning a match. Since on average you will be playing more sideboarded games than non sideboarded games(unless your playing landstill lol) sideboarded games are more important. Simple as that.
That being said I tend to agree that people do not test enough with their sideboards.

[inkaras]

Well I got dethroned last night. Some bad draws and some bad luck on my part, I drew the bye first round, and lost second to an eva green type deck, well sorta but deeds, hand disruptions and removal with all the basic creatures. Anyways there were 3 other zoo decks in the meta now because of me. lol and zoo still won just wasn't be who was the pilot this time.

[Wargoos]

So I'm throwing this together, here's the list I plan on playing. (In the style of the hatfield lists)

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary II Wooly Thoctar
4 Path to Exile
4 Lighting Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Libary
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
1 Barbarian Ring II Another Fetch
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Price of Progress
2 Krosan Grip
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Choke
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

The list is essentially what I regard as "standart" for zoo.
Question is, if I should run the Thoctar and another fetchland or the reliquary-ring package.
I mainly played Goyf Sligh in the past and rin was a nice uncounterable dmg source, maybe it isn't worth it, but I think I'm better of asking.

[jandax]

Today I played in a Legacy side event for the first time and placed second with a close to "typical" Zoo deck, there were 12 to 14 people I recall. I was walking into a blind metagame, and used the OP's sideboard. The use of Horizon Canopy was apparent for me today, as against some decks you just run out of gas. Having that extra card would have been a needed boost had I used 2 or 3. I also thought OP's sideboard as-is runs pretty well. It felt easy sideboarding with no dead cards. Of course it can be tuned as per area. There's no more elegant way to beat face.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Today I played in a Legacy side event for the first time and placed second with a close to "typical" Zoo deck, there were 12 to 14 people I recall. I was walking into a blind metagame, and used the OP's sideboard. The use of Horizon Canopy was apparent for me today, as against some decks you just run out of gas. Having that extra card would have been a needed boost had I used 2 or 3. I also thought OP's sideboard as-is runs pretty well. It felt easy sideboarding with no dead cards. Of course it can be tuned as per area. There's no more elegant way to beat face.

Report?

[jandax]

Round 1: Vs ANT- textbook bye round for him. First hand I keep had two Nacatls and their appropriate lands, so 9 dmg by turn three sounded like a good start. That 9 damage was all I was allowed to deal... I sideboarded out 4 PtE and 2 Apes for 3 Teeg/Pyrostatic Pillar. I go first again and stick a kitty turn 1 and Teeg turn two. I get him in low life, but his Burning Wish for Firespout after a kicked Orim's Chant was all the time he needed to do his thang.

0-1

Round 2: Rock-ish deck. It had all the good cards in B/G/W, yet it was heavy with a set of Swords/PtE, plus Vindicate, plus a set of TS/Duress/Hymn. Bob lets him draw his Goyf's for the inevitable beats. Game 1 was a loss for him, he got deckchecked and shenanigens were called. Game two pre-board, a kitty, Sylvan Library and Big Country (aka Throctar) mitigate his Bob/weeGoyf and discard. We played two more rounds for fun and he destroyed me. Meh, I'll take the match win. It sucked loosing the first round, as it kills the tie breakers.

1-1

Round three: Fish. Game one Big Country hits the table turn three, after walking into two consecutive DAze's on my first turns, loosing a kitty and a Pridemage. His eyes grow big as the spell resolves, and his Reejerey and Mutavault grow pale. I burn face while he chumps, and that was that. I board out 2 PtE/4 Ape for 3 Choke and 3 Pithing Needle. In the second game I play a turn 5 Choke, after coaxing his opening hand's Counters with some critters. He goes to sacrifice that 1/1 who "counters target (instant/sorcery) unless its owner pays 1", so I pay one, he sacs another. Sad face and Choke goes to the yard. A player watching this match pointed out that we misread the card, that it only counters instants/sorceries. It was my next turn by this point, so the judge instructed us to back up a turn to the gamestate when Choke was cast. Hooray for outside interference. THe noob in me would have kept playing to a match loss w/o that Choke. But since it stuck, that was GG. Does Fish play Chains of Vapor or anything like that? I was anticipating a bounce spell so he could untap, but it never came.

2-1

Round four: Countertop w/ Bloodbraid. He's a friend, one who I knocked out of qualifying for Nat's this year with a nuts sealed pool (Apocolypse Hydra, Wall of Reverence, O ring, Volcanic Fallout, Flameblast dragon, etc etc). We knew what eachother were playing b/c the last round we sat side by side. His BB elf addition was kind of nice. It has good synergy with Top/Ancestral Visions. First game I land a kitty and Pridemage before he gets CounterTop out, I assume he's sandbagging one Force/Daze. I try to land a Sylvan Library as Im about out of gas, but that is countered. I start drawing burn and beating with my surviving kitty whilst his fat goyf is beating me. Too much burn/beats lets me win the race at 3 life. he was also running Bolts, so that was scary as he flipped his top card after he "drew" for the turn to show a Bolt. I side out Paths for choke and 1 ape for 2 Needles. Game two I don't get to play Magic. GAme three he counters the Choke in my opening hand, but I've a long head start on the damage race and he fumbles with CB and no Top.

3-1

Round five: Another CT player with a seemingly more standard build. He asks me to ID into the top four as it would help him, and I am already number 2 seed. I agree and we play three pre-boarded games for fun, him winning the first and third. Sylvan library and Jitte are bombs in this matchup, that's all I gotta say.

Top 4:

Same CT player with whom I ID'd. The judge coems over to ask us about prizes. He originally advertised this tournament as a qualifier for a yearly tournament that he throws here in the Netherlands, the winner getting the invite and places 2-4 getting prizes. Vote goes for the winner qualifying and we get down to gaming. Game one was a steam role. He kept a counter/top hand but no counters, and my two kitties and Big Country are too much. I board in Chokes and Pyrostatic Pillars for 2 apes and 4 PtE. Game two was more interesting as he assymbles his combo over my wee board and we go back and forth for a while. I draw Jitte, contemplate and decide to try and cast it. He tops with the CB trigger on the stack, sighs, and it resolves! I gues there was no 2cc card on top of his library. Welp, he lands a couple of Goyfs and goes to town. Big Country takes one down with him and my other goyf double blocks with a kitty. Kitty dies, and then he casts Rhox War Monk. Wtf! Sandbagging for the win....

Remember when I said Sylvan Lirbary/Jitte are the nuts verses CT? I was not lying. I filtered not one or two, but three Helixes over three turns plus one -1/-1 counter from Jitte to kill his THREE consecutively topdecked War Monks, preventing his lifegain and ultimate victory over my tired team. That was a good game. The other two players in top4 are my friend the CT w/Bloodbraid player, and the ANT player to whom I lost the first round. CT thinks and ponders over every card play and their match, although two games for him, lasted 1hr 20min. Slow play is ghey.

4-1-1, 2nd seed

Finals:

Game one I get some dudes under his top Combo, but three Vendilion Cliques wreck my hand and Riptide Lab helps them to do so. I got him down to 7 before he soft locked me with C/T, and countered my burn, effectively letting me run out of gas and play off the top of my deck. out come the Paths and Apes for Choke/Pithing Needle/Pyrostatic Pillar. My opening hand sees two duals, a kitty, Needle, Pillar, and some burn. Keep, land, Needle on Top, go. Looking back I should have named Polluted Delta, as not only did he have a couple in his hand, but it'd have given me an extra turn or two to drop dudes whilst he asymbles his combo. Pillar is cast on turn two, to which he agrees, and the race is on. Kitty beats a couple of times but is bolted. Every creature I play gets countered from hand, so we both take two damage in the process. We both stick a goyf, and now he has his combo online about 5 turns after Pillar sticks. Race race race. With both of us at low life, he ventures into burn range to gank my Goyf and then beat me with it for the win. I had two basic lands in hand and 7 in play wtih a ton of fetchlands in teh yard. Where were you KotR?!?! 0-2 loss for that match taking Second Place.

This was my first Legacy event, and I am quite pleased iwth the format and my performance. I made a few mistakes from which I learned, and more importantly got a good look at the decks to beat. My prizes were a box of matte back sleeves (actually a nice prize as they're quite handy come tournament time) and four boosters, Onslaut, Future Sight, Mirrodin, Dissension. I pulled a Polluted delta, woot, and some interesting EDH cards in the other packs.

Here's the list I ran:

Creatures;
4x Goyf
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird Ape
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x KotR
2x Big Country
Burn:
4x Bolt
4x Helix
Utility:
4x Path to Exile
2x Sylvan Library
2x Jitte

Land:
12 Fetchlands (GW, GR, RW)
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

Sideboard:
3x Pithing Needle/Teeg/Choke/Pyrostatic Pillar/Ancient Grudge

Notes:

Creatures- I enjoyed having 4 3cc big beats. Unanswered they go all the way, and thanks to 12 fetchlands, KotR gets fat quick. I could see cutting two for extra burn in the form of Chain Lightning or Fireblast. Kird Ape was solidly sideboarded out the whole tournament. I also think 4 Lavamancers is the best, because I only have three, I only ran three. They definitely help in control matchups, as it gives Zoo more inevitability. I think I'd cut an Ape for the fourth 'mancer, and leave the 4 3cc slot alone.

Burn:
more can always be better. Again I see Ape as the weakest link to cut for an additional three/four burn spells. I'll probably go for Price of Progress as a three of complement.

Land:
12 fetchlands worked well, but having 2 or 3 Horizon Canopies would have turned games around I think. I think I'll cut some fetchlands for Canopies, probably three, as they still end up in the yard for Knight.

Sideboard:

Ancient grudge goes out. I was walking blind into the metagame, and don't have any Grips. Krosan Grip definitely replaces it. Also, if my meta is indeed Top heavy (get it?!?) then I'll add three Vexing Shusher to the board in place of Pillars. Pillars got a lot of interesting feedback, as folks had either never seen the card or had no idea how to play against it. I think its shock value (puns galore!) gave it the success it enjoyed. Yet, it can easily leave for Shushers.

Comments and critique are always welcome. Feel free to stick it here or PM me!

[chains]

Well I got dethroned last night. Some bad draws and some bad luck on my part, I drew the bye first round, and lost second to an eva green type deck, well sorta but deeds, hand disruptions and removal with all the basic creatures. Anyways there were 3 other zoo decks in the meta now because of me. lol and zoo still won just wasn't be who was the pilot this time.

Sorry, but where are you from? I've been seeing a meta very similar here in my town (country).

Anyway.. Last tournament 3~4 Zoo were hanging around looking for a chance, but all of then were beaten by Stax variants or Combo. :(

[hungryLIKEALION]

I have a bzarrely good match record against stax, but I attribute that far more to me being exceedingly lucky than to it being a decent matchup.

[TotallySweet]

I have a bzarrely good match record against stax, but I attribute that far more to me being exceedingly lucky than to it being a decent matchup.

I just took first with Zoo at a legacy tourney beating Ichorid 2-0, Belcher 2-0, Tempo Thresh 2-1, Death and Taxes 2-1.

It's better to be lucky than good.

[jandax]

Nah, in the end it's better to be good. Zoo is consistent enough to be lucky on its own.

[TotallySweet]

That's why I play it! That and it being an incredibly fun deck to use. I should have qualified my statement with "Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good." My point was that in the trouble machups like stax that hungrylikealion mentioned and combo that I mentioned, being lucky is often better than being good (your victory relies more on your opponent getting bad dredges or having to make goblin tokens instead of casting tendrils for 20 rather than awesome plays on Zoo's part). And let's not forget that pairings are their own, very important sort of luck. =/

[jandax]

Yup, I definitely felt lucky going to finals with a sub par deck. Like I said, there is no more elegant way to beat face.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Yup, I definitely felt lucky going to finals with a sub par deck. Like I said, there is no more elegant way to beat face.

The Big Country nickname is priceless FYI. I wish i woulda thought about that.