I dont have 4 Rainforest atm. but sure, thatll be the best.Originally Posted by firstshot
i prefer having basics , because of moons and pte
pte is a real pain with this deck, especially with zoo, as Im usually using my counters on their burn, goyfs or thoctars.
Ok guys let me explain adding basics.
You cannot change the 18 standard lands in this deck (well 6 fetches that are wooded foothills or U) so its 6 fetches 8 duals and 4 waste, that said if you want to add a basic island or forest you cut the 2 extra slots for them (the clique/bounce/lavamancer slot)
So if you want to play 1 basic you need to play 19 lands, 2 basics 20 lands. You cannot cut duals because the reasont this deck is so good is its consistency and lowering it hurts the decks overall performace.
I c h o r i d - my anti blue
Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
Landstill > Fromat
Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
Basics > Non-Basic Hate
We can therefore logically conlude that
Basics > Format
I don't agree : I'm playing that list atm :
// Lands
3 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [US] Island (3)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
// Spells
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
SB: 3 [7E] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [OV] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
And it really works. I think that running a Forest is impossible (especially when you play Clique) but an Island instead of a Volc is not really problematic.
I'm also testing the split 2 Snare/2 Spell Pierce but I need more test to give an opinion.
About my sideback, I'm thinking of Ravenous Trap instead of Tormod, what do you think about it ?
Ravenous Trap 2BB
If an opponent had three or more cards put into his or her graveyard from anywhere this turn, you may pay {o0} rather than pay Ravenous Trap’s mana cost.Exile all cards from target player’s graveyard.
The thing with forest is, u absolutely need it. U cant get rid of BMoon without it, u cant even play one threat without G. Its another absolutely weak point, if someone extirpates ur Tropicals or removes them with Squads or just kill them with (recurring) Wastelands.
Sure, if u open a hand with just a forest, it sucks, but how often u wanna keep that hand anyway
I think you're probably better off with Tormod's. Ravenous Trap is vulnerable to Therapies while Tormod's can hang out in play. Granted, Trap doesn't get hit by Pithing Needle... I guess depends if you're more worried about hand disruption or them siding needle in against you? Probably some kind of mix is best if you're really worried about hating on the graveyard versus Ichorid specifically, but Tormod's at least has applications in other match-ups.
If you want to devote those slots to the Dredge MU, I'd choose Ravenous Trap over Tormod's for few reasons:
1. If they bring anti-hate, it will be in the form of Grudge/COV/Needle, or maybe FOW (which does the same thing, Crypt or Trap).
So you better have something that invalid their anti-hate.
2. While they can play around Tormod's, if haven`t seen the trap yet, you can catch them while they are trying to combo off.
3. All the anti-hate (Cabal Therapy, Unmask, FOW) against Trap are spells that are easily disruptable by cards you are bringing in post-board: Spell pierce, FOW, Daze.
And these thoughts comes from serious testings against a good LED list/player.
BTW: I think you should go up to 3 or 4 traps if you really want to battle this MU properly.
P-M
I picked up this deck for the first sanctioned Legacy event in over a year. Chopped 1st and 2nd with an ID.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...574#post396574
I've forgotten some details, as I didn't take notes. I did make some mistakes sideboarding, as I got way too excited to be doing as well as I did. I really wanted to face the ANT player instead of my buddy, Kyle M. Oh well though.
Hey guys, I just started playing this deck after playing Birdshit (UGw Thresh) in Vintage for a few years and playing CounterSlivers in Legacy for a while, and I need some help in playing it properly. I play the standard UGr version, but I don't have any Goyfs yet, so I replaced them with Werebear and other lol creatures for the time being.
I attended a larger (60+) sanctioned tournament this weekend and ended up losing in round 2 against Burn, a matchup I thought was supposed to be good for this deck. I won the first game after he got me down to 4, but I managed to counter the important burnspells and a Mongoose went all the way. After that, he sided in about a million Red Elemental Blasts and Pyroblasts and kept countering my counterspells while I fervently dug through my deck with Brainstorm and Ponder, to find a creature. His life total in the second game was 17 (from a single Lightning Bolt I aimed at his head) when I died and in the third 19 (a single fetchland). In the third game, however, he drew three PoPs in a row, and I only had two Spell Snares.
I have no way of finding out the player's list, since he didn't T8 either, but from what I saw it seemed like it was the standard burn lists found in that thread.
The whole mana-denial strategy of my deck failed as he played mostly basic Mountains and very few fetchlands, so all my Stifles and Wastelands were more or less dead cards. I found that with only 8 creatures in the deck, I couldn't keep up, simply. I appreciate any and all tips that people might have in this matchup.
Ben Wienburg finishend second at the Legacy Championship 2009 with the following list:
Maindeck:
Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
Sorceries
4 Ponder
Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
2 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroblast
4 Submerge
2 Pyroclasm
He answered some question to the deck at Starcitygames com: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l..._Wienburg.html
As he is the most successful "Canadian Threshold" - player at the moment, I think we should discuss how to sideboard against the most common matchups with his deck list and sideboard.
Hi folk,
I finally finished Finnish Legacy Champs and I was 24th (thats sad). There was 89 participant and tournament was awesome. I played Caplan's list and made sideboard agains
zoo, folks, mirror and ANT. This was my SB:
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
2x EE
2x Krosan Grip
4x Submerge
3x Disrupt
We played 7 rounds swiss and here is short coverage of each match.
1st round (bw rogue)
Opponent didnt play anything and this was simple match. 1-0
2nd round (supreme blue)
I won first game with couple of goofies and counter all stops and
his critters. Second game was so long. We both tried play spells but
both had counters. I was almost losing but opponent used fetch and
I respond with Submerge to Goofie. Time run out and second game
ended tie. 2-0
3rd round (UG painter)
I lose first game couse I didnt draw burnspell to painter and spell
snare didnt hit stone. In second game I had same problem he had stone
on table cats painter and wont counterwar. I didnt had burn or krosan
but I had Rushing river but only 2 lands so I had to topdeck burn, land,
brainstorm, ponder or even stifle could help one turn but no. Sometimes
you just draw shit like spell snare after opponent already played
painter:D I lose match agains painter and I really couldnt
believe that :D Day before I played over 10 matches agains painter and
I lose zero match and now when you have to just run over you dont
find right cards. 2-1
4th round (UWb fish)
Opponent didnt play anything special. I saw some confidants, mages
and brainstorms. This was easy match. 3-1
5th round (Ur dreadstill)
Opponent was one of the top players of legacy in Finland so I
expect match could be hard. First game I won with goose.In second
game I had in my opening hand stifle, blast, wasteland, fetch, ponder,
disrupt and daze so I kept it. Opponent did mulligan to 5 and started
with mishra. I fetched and expect opponent playind land and standstill
but he didnt have another land so I knew this was my match.
I destroied his lands with wastelands, stoped fetchinf with stifle and
countered cantrips with disrupt and blast. Finally I got a creature and
run over. 4-1
6th round (affinity)
This was important match 'n' I had to win if I wanna get in top8.
I started game with tropical island countered his "drum". I played
second, third, fourth and fifth turn wasteland and I was quite sure
he wont get enought mana anymore but no! I was so wrong and
I lose game one. In second game my opponent had 4 lifes, I had
fire/ice in my hand but I didnt find a second bolt even I played
3 brainstorms and ponder. That was so unbelievable. That was one
of the hardest matches ever. I really enjoy even I lose and my
chance to get in top8 felt down to 2% or something :D 4-2
7th round (bant aggro)
I lose first game cause I did mistake and played goofie to daze
(only card in opponent's hand) and he topdecks 2 goofies and I
didnt have answer for both. Second game was quite long but
noble and goofie is better than my goofie so I lost. 4-3
Tournament was awesome and it was nice that there was so many
people around of Finland. I was little disapointed my record but
sometimes there is so bad luck that it really doesnt matter if you
play right. (as you know there is luck too in this game)
I will test deck little more and I think I will play predators in
sb or even in md one cause it is so good card agains so many decks
like cbtops, decks with noughts, affinity... Blasts, submerges and
grips where awesome in SB but I wasnt able to play disrupts cause
I sideboard them in only once and opponent didnt play anything.
There will be a next tournament in end of the month so
hopefully we keep talking more about relevant sideboard cards and
stradegies especially now when new kind of decks wins tournaments
and people can get that basic land little easier (cause of new fetches).
There is the GP Paris next week and I will do a coverage of the Side event Legacy.
if you dont get a mongoose or a beefy goyf fast enough, it can be hard to race them. for random tournaments like that BEB is always my super secret tech. it completely douched burn at the last event I played at.
So you still stick to Disrupt? As you experienced it was not as good as you hoped it would be. Do you think Spell Pierce would be an alternative?
Spell Pierce is really Better than Disrupt. Indeed, it's quite easy to turn around Daze or Disrupt by keeping one mana open, but turning around Spell Pierce is more difficult. Furthermore, Spell pierce can counter every non-creature spell and this argument suffice to prefer it than Disrupt, don't care about the cantrip effect.
I didnt say disrupts were bad cards I did sideboard them only once soSo you still stick to Disrupt? As you experienced it was not as good as you hoped it would be. Do you think Spell Pierce would be an alternative?
my experience was quite weak. I think disrupt is good card agains
combodecks and in mirror match but unfortunately I didnt face them.
Well Spell Pierce could be good card but I like that you can counter
and draw a card.
To those of you playing spell pierce/disrupt: Has a split of some sort ever been brought up? Your opponent might see one and expect and then you bam them with the other. That might be kind of cool. Just wondering if anybody has tested this.
Right, but I don't want to lose valuable sideboard slots to a deck that I won't run into that much and will rarely see T8 play. I guess the same could be said for Ichorid, but then again the Crypt and Relic in my SB can be used in other games. I think BEB is wasted unless you expect a metagame that's absolutely full of Goblins, Burn and Sligh. Also, wouldn't you need at least 3 in the board to make sure that you draw them in games 2 and 3?
In any case, I'd love some more input on the matchup.
Why not have 3 - 4 Spell Pierces in your board.
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." --Ash
Well, it doesn`t look like a good idea, as Disrupt is only good in certain MU and Spell pierce is good against a larger variety of decks. It works to side-in the 2/2 package in game you would board in 4 disrupt, but not necessarily does in the game you would board in 4 Spell pierce. An exemple would be against Stax: You would have 2 cards to side in instead of 4, but would still have 4 cards to enter against Tendrils.
For me, the Spell pierce choice is pretty obvious,
4 of.
P-M
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