I didn't find the post-board games to be much different than with previous Non-LED builds. I didn't have a problem with Salvage coming into play tapped because I almost don't view it as a mana producing land. You couldn't really keep a hand with it as your only land (you don't really want to see it in your hand anyway). Post board you would ideally want to play Undiscovered Paradise as your second land drop to avoid the issue of not being able to get enough lands in play. Games two and three are often won by dredging slowly so this generally isn't a problem.
I tried Life From the Loam in place of the Salvages, which would be awesome; but I did find myself not hitting two lands often enough.
BTW it's a little off-topic, but I posted this in another thread. It's a vintage list that won a tournament recently. I thought it was an interesting direction for LEDless dredge decks.
creature [12]
4 Bloodghast
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
instant [3]
2 Darkblast
1 Vampiric Tutor
sorcery [15]
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
3 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
enchantment [1]
1 Seal of Primordium
artifact [8]
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
4 Null Rod
land [21]
4 Bayou
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
3 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
60 cards
I canīt view the direction dregde could take from this deck, would you mind explaining it? This deck has taken off the dredgersOriginally Posted by potatofloss
Yes,
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
1 Deep Analysis
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Returns
1 Eternal Witness
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 City of Brass
SB
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Unmask
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
Basic idea, run LED Dredge game 1 in DDD mode vs aggro-control, if they're playing aggro, you have LED + Coliseum at Threshold to explode. Game 2 you board in the creature outlets vs Relic/Crypt and board in Unmask for singletons like DA, a Thug etc.
I think the list is pretty good, your DDD is way stronger than it use to be.
@breathweapon: list looks tight. I see you don't have much answers in your sb. Are the discard outlets enough to fight through the hate in post-board games?
I saw a list on deckcheck that won a tournament.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29531
This list is exactly the kind of list that I'm planning on testing and running once I get Bloodghasts. I'll tweak it a bit. Maybe -1 return, -1 Bloodghast/Gemstone Mine for 2 Tribes and I'll play study as a 4-of over breakthrough. I'll probably proxy up Bloodghasts and try testing it to see if my projected list could play smoothly.
Has anyone tried playing a list like this? How was it?
Why so serious?
I'm not a big believer in "answers" to hate, but rather alternate cards that retain functionality while reducing hate's effectiveness. Honestly, if it's not Greater Gargadon, Unmask, Firestorm, Darkblast, Ray of Revelation, Ancient Grudge or the Evoke critters I don't bother running it.@breathweapon: list looks tight. I see you don't have much answers in your sb. Are the discard outlets enough to fight through the hate in post-board games?
I saw a list on deckcheck that won a tournament.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29531
This list is exactly the kind of list that I'm planning on testing and running once I get Bloodghasts. I'll tweak it a bit. Maybe -1 return, -1 Bloodghast/Gemstone Mine for 2 Tribes and I'll play study as a 4-of over breakthrough. I'll probably proxy up Bloodghasts and try testing it to see if my projected list could play smoothly.
Has anyone tried playing a list like this? How was it?
I figure the stronger your Dredging is, the more likely you are to just plow thru' hate.
Edit: I think you can make a lot of small cuts to fit Bloodghast in, mostly Golgari Thug, Tireless Tribe, City of Brass and either a Breakthrough or Careful Study. Personally, I HATE cutting Ichorid, because it completely defeats the purpose.
No answer for leyline.
I see to much eva green/loam to completely throw out CoV's.
Id love for my board to be 4 unmask,4 firestorm,4 ancient grudge,4 CoV, 1 Chosen, 1 woodfall/1ray, or 2 ray.
but thats not going to happen.
Right now I'm playing:
4 Grudge
4 CoV
2 Ray's
1 Chosen
4 ???? <---- (either Unmask/CotV/Firestorm/Leyline)
The four could be LED and the 2 rays could be deep analyze which might help race the mirror/combo/prison decks better than a defensive approach.
Have to be honest, sideboarding against Leyline is tough business.No answer for leyline.
- I find Leyline to be a rare card to face (deckcheck agrees). I question whether or not it really is necessary to have an answer.
- Leyline is often coupled with discard, permission, or other lockpieces which can often be too good at neutralizing our answers to it. Even something as simple as wasteland (a common card in decks with Leyline) adds to the barriers we must overcome to answer Leyline.
- CoV is the common catchall answer, but I think isn't effective enough against Leyline. However, DE effects are pretty narrow and often can't be run at 4x.
- You absolutely must draw into Leyline hate (you can't dredge into it), which makes it weaker than something like Grudge (which is obviously worth it).
- By the time you would want to CoV Leyline, it is often the case they can just replay it, giving you a 1-turn window in many cases. My best case scenario is CoV Turn 1 or 2 and explode the next turn -- but this generally only works if I was completely undisrupted and drew a great hand.
- In too many cases I've found I need either a turn-1 kill hand + CoV or I need to see CoV and Discard in the same fundamental turn (and have neither countered). This usually means I either have CoV+Discard in hand or I had CoV in hand and perhaps a creature in play with enough gas to make it worth the risk of dredging blind into a Therapy.
- Multiple Leylines are generally autoloss.
I'm okay with a list not trying to answer Leyline. It is more difficult to accomplish than it might be worth. On the other hand, I do see reasons to consider CoV and permanent destruction effects in the board, even if it isn't for Leyline directly.
peace,
4eak
If you bounce their leyline at the end of their turn then you could unmask is on your turn....no need to go crazy with multiple careful studies and or breakthrough's and insane dredges to win the next turn before they can recast it. But for leyline I agree you can't dredge into answers which is why it's the best hate against this deck. That is unless you wispmare it, ray of revelation it, or chain of vapor it to try to get your board position up and running. Ray of revelation should be a 1of in every dredge SB if you expect to see any leyline because DRing a wispmare nets you no tokens and ray's flashback cost is very good for this deck to answer a recasted leyline since you're going to have a whole turn to dredge it with anything unless you seriously can't start comboing out then you either 1) CoV'ed their leyline turn 1 and you are expecting a dark rit into it or 2) you have no discard outlets and no dredgers in hand. Personally, I would probably play putrid imp/tireless tribe turn one then at the EoT when you can cast it do so because then you'll be able to go absolute bonkers on them.
But chain of vapor is more an answer-all type of card; it's really hard to replace because it can be cast off of any land in the deck unless you're playing dakmor salvage.
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@ Dark Ritual
I did include the Bounce->Discard as one of the usual goto options. I think you overestimate the odds of successfully employing your gameplan though. The odds of your gameplan happening (by straight drawing with no dredges) by turn 4 is ~24%. This includes keeping hands that have nothing valuable but the ability to answer Leyline without being disrupted by opposing FoW/Discard or protection via Brainstorm. And, unfortunately, it also means that our sideboarding has watered down the overall consistency and synergy of the deck, which acts as yet another barrier.If you bounce their leyline at the end of their turn then you could unmask is on your turn....no need to go crazy with multiple careful studies and or breakthrough's and insane dredges to win the next turn before they can recast it.
Consistently answering Leyline usually amounts to slowing your fundamental turn by 5 or more turns. An opponent with even a mediocre hand + Leyline definitely has the upperhand. If they have a clock or any additional disruption, Dredge is in a world of trouble without an exceptional hand.
Therapy/Unmask provide options yes, but you'll still be running into a ton of situations where you have very small windows of opportunity (1-2 turns) without being under the constraint of Leyline.
I continue to play CoV, but not because of Leyline. Having some possible out to the rare Leyline is just gravy.
peace,
4eak
I've been haunting Legacy forums for years now, reading every thread and article I can get my mouse on, and I finally want to build a deck. Ichorid is one I've been consider for a while.
However, I'm concerned about the amount of hate there is. Prior to Ravenous Trap being printed I wasn't worried, but this card seems so good again the deck. What are the experienced Dredge players thoughts on the trap, and hate in general? Has a critical mass of hate cards been reached? Or am I worrying over nothing?
Persuade me whether I should throw down some cash for this deck or not! :)
Trap sucks, you can answer ist with Therapy and Unmask.
The point is not how much hate is printed by WotC, but how much hate is played in your meta.
You simply got to learn to play around it.
@ TheMightyQuinn
The trap is stronger than it should be partly because we wouldn't normally think to name it with Therapy because it sees so little play. I'm always surprised to see it, but when I can expect it, Therapy works magic against it. You can still play around it though.
I don't frown much upon hate, but that's because I think the fun of Dredge isn't game 1. Game 1 is sometimes a snoozefest because you sometimes just win without much interaction. Dredge becomes interesting in games 2 and 3 simply because the majority of players have hate for it and prepare hands to deal with Bridge and answer our draw/discard effects, etc.
The nice part about about non-LED dredge is that you've got strong sideboarding options. Ancient Grudge + Creature-based Discard abilities are very effective at baiting, slow-rolling, and interacting with opposing control features. I like the fact that Turn 1 Relic/Crypt + indirect disruption (removal/permission/discard/mana-denial) poses a puzzle which is difficult yet solvable in many cases.
If Zoo continues to be the DTB, then I see Ichorid as a strong choice. However, if Counterbalance declines (not saying it will), and decks which are strong against Zoo come to the forefront, then I believe TES/ANT will edge our deck out. Metagames with Stax-type decks are also really dangerous for us. Otherwise, I think we have decent matchups against most every archetype.
Dredge is also an interesting deck in itself. It doesn't abide by the normal deckbuilding principles of magic very much. I can't recall another deck I've played that was capable of actively winning the game without casting a single spell.
Plus, it is fairly cheap to build imho. People will hate you though. =)
peace,
4eak
Last edited by 4eak; 11-11-2009 at 01:44 PM.
I think Greater Gargadon seems really good in the board of bloodghasts lists.
A semi-perm sac outlet that can help do stupid things.
A cool idea in theory, but after substantial testing I just couldn't abide sideboard cards that don't answer direct threats to the deck. Sure, Gargadon makes for some cool plays vs path to exile and the like, but there's just no room for him in 15 cards, and no room to side him in vs aggro anyway (since they're siding in their crypts/relics vs you anyhow).
@TheMightyQuinn
Ichorid is awesome and you should play it. It's a totally fun deck and perhaps the most bizarre one as well. Yes, almost everyone brings in hate, yet the deck still does well. A testament to its power, really. If you want a quality and time-tested list to get yourself started, check out Parcher's 75. If you can spring for the LEDs, that is. Otherwise a budget list is an ok stand-in till ya get em.
@lorddotm
A bunch of people are trying to fit that square peg into the triangle hole. I'm of the opinion that ghast can't just be shoved into ichorid. The deck is worse off for it. He needs a whole new vehicle if he's to be abused properly.
How is non-LED sideboard stronger than LED versions? They look really similar.
Non-LED has more space than LED because it pre-boards the 1cc outlets, giving you space for removal or "sweeteners" like Firestorm and Darkblast vs aggro.
If you preboard, it's not giving more space, it's using that space in a different way. I've just never been bent out of shape to try and find a discard outlet in a way that would make me want to maindeck Tribe. Certainly not as a 4-of. And certainly not instead of lion's eye diamond. Isn't it just the same few slots? LED sideboards firestorm as well. Darkblast is bad.
No, if you're not boarding Tribe then you're boarding something else in its place i.e. more slots. When you're facing Crypt, you'll want every Imp and Tribe you can find - LED not so much.
Which is why you can side in Tribe game 2. Game 1 is where LED shines.
My point was that having Tribe main is like 'boarding' it in every game, even game 1. It's not like the list has more cards in it; the tribe would be something else main.
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