@ Gocho
I run into very few problems converting mana. Cantor and Morphose directly convert mana, Land Grant gives you flexibility in whether you need to start off with black or red, there are enough black spells to make Chrome Mox an easy fixer for either red or black, and Lotus Petal obviously helps enable either or.- You can't convert Black mana in Red mana. When your mana sources are only Lotus petal or Land Grant, Dark Ritual and the expensive red spells you can't chain the spells to produce mana. If you can't find a Petal and only have SSG and no mana-fixers you can't play Black Rituals. I took a lot of Mulligans because that. There aren't a black mana-fixer? Green and Red mana can be fixed, Black mana can't.
Some hands require to be mulliganed, no differently than any other version of Belcher. My 1st turn combo win chances with the deck, without fizzling, are very high and very consistent, so I'm not sure where you're running into issues.
How can green and red be fixed but black cannot? This deck runs a ton of red sources and ways to cast red sources, and enough ways to convert those sources. I'm not running into issues with this, I'm not sure why you are.
I don't think Tinder wall is a must have. I'm not denying that it is a good mana accelerant, but it requires green mana, and I feel that the deck is better off sticking to a R/b base. Dark Ritual is the best ritual in the game, and gearing the deck to be able to consistently cast Dark Rituals sets it up for more frequent turn 1 wins.- Tinder Wall is a must have because it's flexible. It gives only +1 mana but it's RED mana. You need more cheap mana cards because you can't chain Dark or Cabal Rituals with expensive Red Rituals. You need a G to play it, but the same cards that give you B to play Dark Ritual can give you G to play Tinder (Land Grant, Lotus Petal, mana-fixers and Chrome Mox).
Cabal Ritual is just a filler accelerant, because the deck cuts out green for black. ESG could replace Cabal since they both provide +1 (net) and ESG doesn't require an initial investment, but Cabal being black is important for the the black spell count for Chrome Mox, IMO. That, and Cabal adds to the spell count, which is relevant when I have to go with a Burning Wish win.- I don't like Cabal Ritual. You get BBB for BR, and then you can't get R to continue chaining spells. I rarely have Threshold and if I get it, I have enough mana and don't need more. You can't play it without a mana-fixer or Dark Ritual and in both cases you can play Spoils without play Cabal. I'll put Tinder Wall in this slot. You can play Lotus Petal (G)-> Tinder (RR) -> Mana-Fixer (RB) -> Dark Ritual (RBBB) -> Desperate Ritual (BBRRR)or Setthing Song (BRRRRR)-> Belcher(B or BR) -> Spoils for LED. But can't DO it if the Tinder was a Cabal.
Yes, Spoils is the best card in the deck. Very flexible, never a dead card (even in multiples, sometimes). Makes having a hand of Goblin Charbelcher and Spoils better than a hand of Goblin Charbelcher and Empty the Warrens, or a hand of Burning Wish and Spoils better than a hand of Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens, for example(s).- Spoils it's great and a must have. You would die for it (never in my 30 test games), but you can win with only 5 manas + Charbelcher + Spoils if you look for LED. If you get FOWed, getting 5 manas another time it's very easy with this deck.
The thing about Chrome Mox though, is that it's a permanent mana source. I know the 2-for-1 is bad, and maybe I should test around with cutting it for ESG, but being permanent means that if I cannot cast + activate Belcher this turn, I have a greater consistency to activate it next turn. That, and it can provide either red or black to start my chain off, whereas ESG being green won't start my chain off without another 0 investment accelerant or a Wild Cantor.- Chrome Mox is terrible. Two cards for a single mana? When I played it I always need a second turn to activate Belcher. ESG would be better used only for colorless costs. His green mana can be fixed, black mana can't. And protect you vs Chalice at 0.
But there are plenty of black fixers...? We have ways of generating early R with SSG, Petal, Mox, and Land Grant. Once we generate an early red, we can convert it into black with a number of spells like Cantor, Morphose, Petal, Mox, and Land Grant. Like I said, I've not been having serious issues with converting the mana, honestly.My suggestions until we find a Black Fixer (untested):
-4 Chrome Mox, -4 Cabal Ritual
+4 Elvih Spirit Guide, +4 Tinder Wall
@ surly
If you've read why I initially tried it, it's because the guy who beat my Counterbalance control deck used them. Wild Cantor is clearly better, and so I've switched.*BoP... 3 words - are you serious I mean... really... even Cantor isn't the best choices, and BoP is even worse.
I don't win with Spoils/Belcher alone. I also run 2 Burning Wish MD, with a 1/1 split of EtW/Tendrils in the SB. If you're that concerned with the amount of kill spells ran, 1 Cabal Ritual can easily be dropped for 1 more Burning Wish, giving the deck a 4/4/3 Belcher/Spoils/Wish, which is the same number of kill spells ran in traditional R/g Belcher.*cutting ETW: I honestly can't imagine this deck working without that card MD. Sure, it's not the most consistant way of winning and really fragile, but nevertheless - you simply can't constantly win with Belcher+Spoils all alone, so there has to be another option. Otherwise you'll loose too many games due heavy mulling.
Or, you can have Spoils/Belcher for mana heavy hands and just win with a Belcher + activation.*reducing the BW count: same as above, beside ETW it fetches Diminishing Return, which becomes a really strong card in combination with mana-heavy hands.
I think Seething Song is a mandatory 4-of, because it and Dark Ritual are the only two rituals that add +2 (net) mana; every other accelerant is only +1 (net) (with the exception of a thresh'd Cabal Ritual). Everything else is debatable, but I don't value Tinder Wall very highly in my R/b deck because it costs green to be cast in the first place, whereas the deck wants to be generating red or black instead, and the red that Tinder Wall provides doesn't really matter since the deck runs an assload of red accelerants already. It's basically just a 1 mana invest +1 (net) accelerant, which is very good, but easily replaceable, IMO.*Tinder Wall: after playing about 1k games with my Belcher list (playing that deck since 3 years now in some casual rounds ) I would sort all mana producing spells this way: LED/DarkRit/Petal > Rite of Flame/Land Grant > SSG/ESG/Tinder Wall > Seething Song > Mox/Desperate
....to summarize, before I would reduce the number of Tinder Walls I would cut Seething Songs, Desperate Rituals and reduce the number of Moxen down too 3.
Last edited by Hanni; 10-02-2009 at 10:28 PM.
Sorry for the double post, but I had new content to add that wasn't relevant to the previous post.
I'm going to try -1 Cabal Ritual +1 Burning Wish in my list for now, so that I have a 4/4/3 configuration of kill spells. This opens me up to more consistent opening hands I think, as well as give me more access to sideboard protections in games 1, 2, and 3 (if they go that long). Considering standard R/g Belcher runs a 4/4/3 also, this should be identical with starting hands and such.
Also, I'm not advocating Cabal Ritual. That accelerant spot could be any +1 (net) accelerant. I'm simply choosing Cabal Ritual, for now, because it makes more sense with the rest of the deck. The deck wants to be R/b, so adding green rituals seems counterproductive.
What I am advocating is Dark Ritual and Spoils of the Vault. I'm advocating that the deck should become R/b Belcher. I'm advocating dropping EtW out of the maindeck, and I'm advocating that the evolution of Belcher, hell the evolution of combo, is to go this route.
R/b Belcher is blazingly fast. My turn 1 win % has been like 90%, seriously. The few games where I don't win on turn 1 with an activated Belcher, I'm either dropping 10-12 1/1 Goblin tokens, casting Tendrils for lethal, or dropping Belcher turn 1 and activating it turn 2. Almost never do I combo out any later than turn 2, and if I do, I either kept a hand that should have been mulliganed, or I ran into FoW/Chalice.
R/b Belcher is very resilient. It races most relevant hate and has sideboard protection plans for the hate that it can't race. Aside from the few problem cards it faces (Chalice/FoW), the deck beats every other deck in the format when it's not fizzling, most cases even if it does for whatever reason combo past turn 2.
R/b Belcher is easy to hate out with Pithing Needle, which makes it a metagame deck much like Ichorid. Both Belcher and Ichorid have similar clocks, except they have different good and bad matchups. Difference here is that the deck doesn't fold to Pithing Needle because it runs Burning Wish to grab either EtW or Tendrils, and Shattering Spree is a great answer to it.
That is all.
EDIT: In my old Belcher deck, I used to pack 4 REB maindeck. I'm thinking it could be possible for me to drop the 3 Cabal Rituals for 3 REB maindeck, without a drastic change in the decks consistency. I'll test that a bit and see how it turns out.
Last edited by Hanni; 10-12-2009 at 01:20 AM.
Gratz to Cedric for getting 8th at the 5k with deck.
Only complaint I have against his configuration is that double Tinder Wall in your opening grip sucks.
Regarding the sideboard, why isn't one Infernal Tutor an auto include? It gives you something to do if you have 6 or more mana after Burning Wish. 4 more goblins can make all the difference.
I don't have much first-hand experience playing either one of these decks, but I thought the general consensus about Ichorid is that it doesn't really fold to sideboard hate either, as long as the pilot is experienced enough and knows what to expect...Originally Posted by Hanni
It seems like they're pretty similar in resilience really. And although people aren't packing sideboard slots specifically for the Charbelcher matchup these days, people are using plenty of cards that are good against it: Force of Will, Chalice, artifact hate, Trinisphere, bounce spells, Thoughtseize, etc.
I don't think the meta is quite as ripe for the picking as all that. I'm not trashing Charbelcher, but I think you might be jumping the gun by a little bit if you're ready to proclaim it the next combo-deck-Jesus.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Played by Cedric Philips
Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty The Warrens
4 Land Grant
4 Rite Of Flame
Lands
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
Sideboard:
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Duress
1 Empty The Warrens
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils Of Agony
-Chris-
This is a good primer. Really, the OP and following posters are intelligent and bring to the table good arguements for and against many things.
Here is a question for the masses, meant to illicit overwhelming pro's over con's:
Why run Belcher?
In any given tournament, you effectively have a bye against 50% of the room.
Also if you don't really want to think.
With the simplicity comes a price though - it's tough to "outplay" people because you have so few options with this deck. Just ram your head into the wall until you win or lose, simple as that.
Pro: you roll over any non blue deck and any blue deck that doest mull to force.
Con: a single force or sometimes dazze backed by a threat beats you.
Last month in our monthly tournament, a standard Rbg Belcher makes top 2 after 5 Swiss round and Top8. He didn't faces a single blue deck.
In the final, he losed vs Tarmosligh. First game, Taiga was the first card after Charbelcher activation and can't find 3 mana to activate again. Second game 12 goblins meets a single Pyroclasm and a Tarmo kill him.
With Belcher, you are playing vs the luck.
This month our meta was fulled of Canadian Thresh and Merfolks.
GP: MN Legacy Side Event - 58 Players
2 Belcher decks Split the top 2 prizes.
lol good times.
Losing to belcher must be an awful experience I've never had the displeasure of feeling.
...though probably still not as bad as CB though :P
Yeah, you hear about Belcher doing this a lot, and I have walked away from my local monthly league 3-0 or 2-1 a couple of times, then turned up and gone 0-3, 0-3, 0-3 at other events. I love this deck, but it is far to inconsistent and rolls over far too hard against any kind of control. It is very dependant on the opening hand and mulliganing to oblivion is certainly possible. I have shelved this for the time being as a deck that is fun to bring out against newbies to show them some brokeness, but not reliable enough to use against anyone else in serious tourney play.
Dave
"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted." - John Lennon
Well, after losing to Cedric at the Philly 5K, I decided it was time I tried to belch people. It worked...
Tournament report coming as soon as I find my notes.
Personally Ive been testing Hannis RB version and it really doesnt have half the consistency issues of RG belcher. Being able to go for belcher against decks that have EE or clasm is so huge.
I'm thinking about playing RB Belcher at the next event I go to.. Here is my list:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Spoils of the Vault
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Dark Ritual
3 Manamorphose
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
SB:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Hull Breach
3 Duress
4 Pyroblast
4 Xantid Swarm
There were a decent number of decks with force in my meta, but not too many, so I figured 8 pieces of blue hate would be fitting. I also like the Diminishing Returns, because it gives me a second hand to try with, and my opponent can't mull to force with the new hand. Any suggestions?
You might want to have some Shattering Sprees in the board. Back when I was playing this deck, my board was 4 Spree, 4 Pyro, 4 Swarm, 1 EtW, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Hull Breach. I figured I would never Wish for anything else besides those three 1-ofs, though Diminishing Returns DOES look intriguing - maybe over the Pyroclasm slot.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
T8 1 of the Belcher's Won to his opponent scooping before he flipped lethal... He showed for fun... He whiffed. :D
just my 2 cents..
Goblin Welder > REB
welder is either going to draw a counter, or belcher will get countered, and then you can weld belcher into play. even better, drop LED and an artifact, break LED next turn putting belcher into the grave and then weld your belcher into play ftw. also, welder can take out opposing pithing needles provided they have another artifact in the grave. then again, REB can take out counterbalance.
ive seen welder put to better use then ive seen with REB. thoughts?
also, after playing seriously way too many hands with Pact SI, this thread got me thinking...
Summoners Pact > Tinder Wall
what does tinder wall do? it turns G into RR, so its an investment of G. summoners pact is an investment of 0 and it can fetch either ESG or SSG so it effectively nets you the same amount of mana but you can choose red or green and you dont need the initial investment of G. i will of course recieve the criticism, 'what if belcher misfires'. well my first reaction was, if your turn 1 WIN percentage (not going off percentage) is already at 90% then this should improve the consistency that much more. if not then, the number 90% is wrong or pact just doesnt belong. running into 4 tinder walls is an issue but running into 4 summoners pact? they even count as spells if you are going for tendrils via burning wish. speaking of which, how does one go about getting a high enough spell count to resolve a tendrils in belcher? im assuming that is with diminishing returns and color fixing accounts for the blue but really? i cant imagine that happening often. anyway, onto a list that uses pact, that isnt pact SI...
this build:
win con:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Spoils of the Vault
starting mana:
4 Lotus Petal
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Land Grant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
color fixing:
4 Manamorphose
2 Wild Cantor
rituals/led:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Dark Ritual
2 Culling the Weak
land:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Taiga
the idea is, drop bayou in favor of dryad arbor. culling the weak can be used via dryad arbor which can be searched for via land grant OR summoner's pact, or you can play it by dropping wild cantor or searching for wild cantor and dropping it with another mana source. also, with this build you are very likely to drop a land because you can search for them with summoners pact or land grant. also, you can play spoils for land grant or pact to get rid of your other land if you have the hand to support that play.
the color fixing is very questionable though. it should probably be reworked if it works at all. you can of course search for SSG/ESG with summoner's pact while you can also search for a wild cantor to convert to black. the question is, are there enough black sources to enable 4 dark rit and 2 culling the weak? probably not. that has to be worked in somehow. i dropped taiga at first but i think that taiga will prevent the misfire more often so i changed it to keep taiga. manamorphose will therefore be key to color fixing you some black mana. you must run 4 in this build for it to work. all together that makes 4 petal, 2 cantor, 4 pact --> cantor, 4 manamorphose as the black sources/color fixers = 14 provided you dont have to use pact for cantor and then not have cantor as your color fixer or need pact as your starting mana for rituals.
i understand its a more risky build, but come game 2 you can board out summoners pact in favor of duress/xantid swarm/reb/welder/etc so really its just improving your game 1. the point behind running pact is to improve consistency in game 1. if it doesnt, by all means drop it but as long as belcher has the surprise factor, its going to win a lot of games out of sheer speed. especially game 1 games. also, you arent always going to have pact in your hand. in fact you wont have it in most of your games. the reasons for running it are along the same lines as running spoils IMO.
i can tell you from experience playing Pact SI that summoners pact is really legit if played in the right hand. granted, it might make you mulligan maybe a few more times in your playtesting of 50 games but im betting it will improve consistency. i also acknowledge that summoners pact is better made use of with draw4's that Pact SI has and belcher doesnt have. likely more color fixers will be necessary meaning more cantor and less ESG(?). i dont think you need even 3 ESG as you dont really use green mana for anything you couldnt use red for (give that tinderwall is out). then again, you need starting mana for rituals so i can see maybe cutting 1 for a 3rd cantor as a possibility.
thoughts?
Except for the fact that you can't search for SSG with summoner's pact because it only fetches green creatures. Otherwise I think it could be an improvement
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