[Deck] Solidarity

[TheyCallMeTim]

If they are working for you and your playstyle, by all means keep them. I do not think they are the optimal card choice, however.

Earlier, you stated that your decklist was the same as my first posting, with 1 more fetchland. Although I had good results with replacing 1 FOI and 1 Remand with 2 x Twincast, I feel the conversation should get back on the right track. So with that said, is this the best Solidarity build?

4 Brainstrom
4 Opt
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Flash of Insight
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island

Perhaps some others would be willing to play test the Twincast slots, or maybe have other suggestions? What about sideboard?

Requiem's Board:
1 Meditate
1 Stroke
1 Turnabout
1 Brainfreeze
1 Rebuild
4 Ravenous Trap
2 Twincast
2 Wipeaway
2 Echoing Truth

Tim's Board:
3 Disrupt
3 Hydroblast
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Hyrkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Ravenous Trap

[flrn]

Mainboard:
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
1 Disrupt
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
4 Opt
1 Peek
2 Peer Through Depths
3 Remand
4 Reset
2 Turnabout
1 Flooded Strand
12 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
1 Brain Freeze
3 Disrupt
2 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
3 Wipe Away

This is my current Setup. Aggro Decks are faster than they were before, so everytime i play against Zoo or Goblins or something like that Cryptic Command is a useless card to me. Everytime i drew the card, i asked myself why the fuck would i want to play it these days? Sure it´s a good card in a Counterbalance infested meta but in the last 2 tourney´s i had to face 1 Counterbalance Deck and when i look at the meta breakdown´s i dont see much of em around.

So i thought a bit about the deck and how i am doing in the combo and decided to go for this build. It´s 14 cc1 cards, 16 cc2 cards, 6 cc3 cards and 2 cc4 cards + 4 Force of Will, so you probably shouldnt run it in a CB meta. Since the meta here has a lot of aggro decks you wanna be able to combo out with 3 lands in play, since they can almost certain kill in round 4, which got me to this list. Im not playing Twincast either, because when im running out of steam midcombo and i draw Twincast, i fizzle. When i draw a cantrip on the other hand, i might be able to continue.

I have Ravenous Trap as 1-off in the board, to be able to wish it with Cunning Wish. Yeah third round trap seems bad against dredge, but if im desperate for it, i can still cast it with High Tide and Reset on turn 2. I also dont wanna waste 4 spots in the board on it, because i need the other spots. I can also board in 3 Disrupt against Dredge, to be able to counter their discard outlets, to slow em down.

Will play this deck tomorrow and probably write a report after.

[Kanabo]

Hydroblast:
Useful against Goblins, Burn, Goyf Sligh, basically any fast red aggro because they can sometimes be too fast. Better than Blue Elemental Blast because a red target isn't required, and thus it can be cast just to up the storm count.

can somebody please explaine this to me?

[Zinch]

Hydroblast:
Useful against Goblins, Burn, Goyf Sligh, basically any fast red aggro because they can sometimes be too fast. Better than Blue Elemental Blast because a red target isn't required, and thus it can be cast just to up the storm count.

can somebody please explaine this to me?

The difference is that BEB says "destroy target red permanent or counter target red spell" while Hydroblast reads "destroy target permanent if it is red or counter target spell if it is red" so, if you SB your hydroblasts and in the middle of the combo you draw one, you can play it even if there isn't any red target to up the storm count.
In other words, BEB requires a red target while Hydroblast only requires a target (is only efficient against red targets, but that is other issue)

[Seraphus]

4 Brainstrom
3 Opt
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Flash of Insight
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will
1 Peek
1 Peer Through Depths

4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island

best decklist...

[Taurelin]

1 Peer Through Depths
2 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze
best decklist...

No.

[Seraphus]

No.

do u know that this list is Ritzka's list?
out of 37 players this list is top 1!

[cjva]

do u know that this list is Ritzka's list?
out of 37 players this list is top 1!

How do you think now? What 37 players? What top 1? What am i missing?

[Taurelin]

Impressive...

My (admittedly short) reply was a subtle hint to you to provide some more information.

- Why is this the best list, in your opinion?
- Why only 2 Turnabout?
- Why play Peer through depths at all?
- No SB?

I respect Simon for everything he has done for the deck's development. But simply copy-pasting a random (and in my opinion not perfect) list doesn't help at all.

[Seraphus]

How do you think now? What 37 players? What top 1? What am i missing?

before that mesage i posted a decklist that to me is very very good!

lets just say that have 5 impulse and 1 peek instead of 4 opt due to the control matchs is amazing... btw cryptic command is one of the best cards against zoo...

but ok...

result of today's discuss:
Remand sucks, cryptic sucks, peek isn't any good and one of the most versitily decklist that gives a bigger number of options...

[Seraphus]

Impressive...

My (admittedly short) reply was a subtle hint to you to provide some more information.

- Why is this the best list, in your opinion?
- Why only 2 Turnabout?
- Why play Peer through depths at all?
- No SB?

I respect Simon for everything he has done for the deck's development. But simply copy-pasting a random (and in my opinion not perfect) list doesn't help at all.

I am playing this list, because to many times i have turnabout and nothing to do with it, because cryptic does the job of tapping creature and peer of have a 5 impulse!
in my opinion sb is something that a player must "bet" is personal ideas (but never exclude the core cards: stroke, meditate, turnabout and rebuild) for example i play the third brainfreeze in sb due to the fact that some matchs demands more than one time shot so u will need to combo out again (something wich 2 FOI are very usefull). also sb is a meta calling echoing truth is good in an ichorid meta, repeal for exmple in new combo drak depths, hydroblast for obvious already proven and explained early reasons, disrupt the same wipe way and twincast.

[Van Phanel]

I'm currently experimenting with several changes to the basic list because I want a list that is as close to perfect as possible.

That list was like that because every now and then we get a hand of 3 lands 3 untaps and a Brain Freeze or something similar and I wanted to decrease the possibility for that. While it worked out acceptable in that single tournament I wouldn't advise playing with only 2 Turnabout because even though they are annoying in multiples early on they are needed, especially for an early combo. Peer Through Depths is in fact good and a one-off is constantly moving in and out of my list at the moment.

This leads to the next important point which is the speeding up of the other decks. The most played Aggro-control deck (at least around here) is Merfolk, the aggrodecks kill on turn 4 consistently and combo is becoming more prevalent as well. In all those matchups Command sucks which is why I'm considering cutting them. Even though I'm still unsure this might be the way to go.

[Seraphus]

I'm currently experimenting with several changes to the basic list because I want a list that is as close to perfect as possible.

That list was like that because every now and then we get a hand of 3 lands 3 untaps and a Brain Freeze or something similar and I wanted to decrease the possibility for that. While it worked out acceptable in that single tournament I wouldn't advise playing with only 2 Turnabout because even though they are annoying in multiples early on they are needed, especially for an early combo. Peer Through Depths is in fact good and a one-off is constantly moving in and out of my list at the moment.

This leads to the next important point which is the speeding up of the other decks. The most played Aggro-control deck (at least around here) is Merfolk, the aggrodecks kill on turn 4 consistently and combo is becoming more prevalent as well. In all those matchups Command sucks which is why I'm considering cutting them. Even though I'm still unsure this might be the way to go.

sorry to disagree but cryptic doesn't sucks on merfolks matchup it facilitates the finishing part when u brainfreeze and don't use stroke. even more it draw a card or counter for example a stifle.

[TheyCallMeTim]

It's nice to see alot of people participating in the discussion. It helps develop the deck when we have a variety of people testing and posting results as opposed to simply making claims that one card sucks while another is better without any explanation to support such claims. With that said, I appreciate everyone's involvement in making my favorite deck a little better and I hope to chime in on the recent debates when I have a little more time to test and report back.

[flrn]

btw cryptic command is one of the best cards against zoo...

but you wont have that 4 mana to play that card. i dont know what the zoo players are doing in your meta, but they can kill you most of the time on their fourth turn, so if they are on the play you only have 3 mana to combo out. same goes for goblins, burn, goyfsligh and other aggro decks. that´s why cryptic command got cut in my list. because a lot of people are playing those decks in my meta. and against meerfolk it gets nasty. they have a slightly slower clock than those aggro decks, but on the other hand a nice disruption part. we dont wanna see cursecatcher, we dont wanna see stifle and standstill, force of will and daze are also bad for us. so we might have the mana here to play cryptic command in theory, but practically we have like 4-5 lands in play when we need to play it. by that moment the meerfolk guy should have enough stuff to handle it properly. and most of the time we are the guy which has to play cryptic command to keep him from killing us. at that moment we are most likely breaking his standstill, which gives him even more cards to handle it.

and i dont think we need to discuss cryptic command against tendril-based combo decks, which kill most of the time turn 2 or 3 or dredge decks with LED, which kill most of the time turn 1-3.

[ansset]

but you wont have that 4 mana to play that card. i dont know what the zoo players are doing in your meta, but they can kill you most of the time on their fourth turn, so if they are on the play you only have 3 mana to combo out. same goes for goblins, burn, goyfsligh and other aggro decks. that´s why cryptic command got cut in my list. because a lot of people are playing those decks in my meta. and against meerfolk it gets nasty. they have a slightly slower clock than those aggro decks, but on the other hand a nice disruption part. we dont wanna see cursecatcher, we dont wanna see stifle and standstill, force of will and daze are also bad for us. so we might have the mana here to play cryptic command in theory, but practically we have like 4-5 lands in play when we need to play it. by that moment the meerfolk guy should have enough stuff to handle it properly. and most of the time we are the guy which has to play cryptic command to keep him from killing us. at that moment we are most likely breaking his standstill, which gives him even more cards to handle it.

and i dont think we need to discuss cryptic command against tendril-based combo decks, which kill most of the time turn 2 or 3 or dredge decks with LED, which kill most of the time turn 1-3.

Completely agree with everything you just said. Note to the thread:

Are we discussing Cryptic Command's merits against aggro, or against Counterbalance?

Because if you really want to argue the merits of a 4cmc card against aggro in Legacy, good luck with that one. If you want to talk about its merits against Counterbalance, you might have a bit more luck with that, but I would rather just play Wipe Away. And really, Wipe Away is probably much better than Cryptic against aggro, since you can uncounterably bounce their lord that is letting them lethal you this turn, essentially cantripping, since you get to untap and draw another card. Really, try it out. This is coming from Gearhart, who gives not a damn about the deck, but with whom I have had more discussions about the deck than I care to admit.

[Silent Requiem]

I had not been going to post this here, because it was a very small tournament, but it has some Merfolk matches, which are under discussion.

***

Right, tournament report.

Turnout was not as good as I would have hoped, but that is perhaps not surprising given the conflict with another tournament.

We played four rounds of swiss, and the decks present were as follows:

Solidarity
Merfolk (x2)
Burn (x2)
Stax
White weenie
UW control

A very different meta from last month. My meta is in a lot of flux, as we have loads of new Legacy players experimenting with decks to find a favourite.

Round 1: Burn.

This matchup was against a guy in his first legacy tournament. His deck had not yet been optimized, but his sideboard was FULL of blue hate. I won both games, and we spent some time talking about the other decks he would face, and how very badly I did at my first Legacy tournament. Speaking to him at the end of the tournament, I learned that he had had a blast, and was eagerly awaiting the next tournament. Of course, he also plans to optimize his deck over the next little while.

Round 2: Merfolk.

This was always going to be a tough matchup for me. The pilot, Tom, is a really sharp player, and he "gets" aggro-control at an instinctive level. However, the deck gods had decided to torment me as well.

In game 1 I had to mulligan to 5 just to find a land. Nevertheless, I felt that I played my five card hand well, and was ready to go off in response to an attack for lethal. I nearly managed it, too, but 3 Force of Will in Tom's hand was just too much for me.

In game 2 I again had to mulligan to 5 to find a land, but I pulled a "perfect" hand. I had all the combo pieces, Force of Will, and one land. If I could topdeck 3 more lands before I died, I could win. Of course, guess what I didn't draw for the next five turns.

Round 3: White weenie.

This was our one non-local. My understanding is that he just happened to be in the area, and he won't be a regular.

Game 1, I let him beat me down to about 6 life before going off. Game 2, I feared Silence, but instead my opponent got mana screwed, letting me win fairly comfortably.

Round 4: Merfolk.

I was matched up against Andy in the final round. Now Andy was the only person to have won every match so far. If he beat me, he was the clear winner, but if I beat him then it would come down to tiebreakers. There was therefore a great deal of additional interest in my matchup.

Game 1: Things seemed to start off well, as he was mana screwed. He dropped a wasteland and a vial, and dropped a few beaters. However, when I tried to go off, I found that I was again facing a hand with 3 Force of Will. What is it with the fish people?

Game 2: He tried to just beat me down, but he did not draw enough counters and I decked him.

Game 3: This game was really intense. Everyone else had finished, and we had a large audience. Andy dropped standstill and started beating me down with Mutavaults. I tried to go off (just before he had lethal), and ran into a wall of counters: 2 Force of Will and 2 Mindbreak Traps. When I finished my abortive attempt I had a single card in hand (Cunning Wish) and a Flash of Insight in the graveyard.

My thought was that between FoI and Cunning Wish I could try and find a Meditate next turn and draw into something god-like. Andy only had a single card left in hand, and my spirits rose considerably when I top-decked a High Tide in the draw phase. I passed the turn and waited for the attack.

I was at 2 life, and Andy attacked with only one Mutavault. Technically, he did not need to do more than that, but the fact that left him 1U open made me pretty sure that he had a Daze in hand (he did). I cast High Tide, FoI into a Reset, and Wished for a Meditate. The Meditate let me draw Meditate, Twincast, FoW, and Impulse. After casting a Twincast Meditate (to draw 8), it was essentially over except for the formalities of actually decking him.

Results: Exhausted from my last match, I learned that my win had put be in third, Andy in second, and Tom in first. Tom was delighted, and very generously gave me £10 of the prize money, saying that it had been my win that had put him in the top spot. Needless to say, this made me feel far less upset about coming in third.

***

As you can see, there is not really a strong aggro presence in my meta, but Countertop does show up from time to time. For me, then, Cryptic Command makes sense. It is a flexible card, and I love having some maindeck bounce (useful against Stax and UW control, for example). Wipeaway is better bounce, but it is less flexible.

On the other hand, one of the reasons I did not run CC maindeck for a long time is because it is weak against fast decks, such as aggro or combo. In a meta based on fast decks, I would definitely take it back out. Even now, it often comes out games 2-3.

This was also my first time playing against the Mer. I had no problem playing around Cursecatcher, but I found that they packed loads of other counters. Definitely a tough matchup.

-Silent Requiem

[TheyCallMeTim]

Congrats Requiem on your favorable results.

On the other hand, one of the reasons I did not run CC maindeck for a long time is because it is weak against fast decks, such as aggro or combo. In a meta based on fast decks, I would definitely take it back out. Even now, it often comes out games 2-3.

if you really want to argue the merits of a 4cmc card against aggro in Legacy, good luck with that one. If you want to talk about its merits against Counterbalance, you might have a bit more luck with that, but I would rather just play Wipe Away

Perhaps surprisingly, I have yet to use Cryptic Command to bounce a Counterbalance. I typically use it as either "tap all creatures opponents control, draw a card" or "counter target spell, draw a card". Keep in mind that I rather enjoy it in this capacity, albeit it's relatively expensive casting cost.

With that said and in light of my recent Remand vs. Twincast discussions, I will play test the following list:

4 Brainstrom
4 Opt
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Twincast
2 Flash of Insight
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze

6 Fetchland
12 Island

________________
3 Disrupt
3 Hydroblast
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Hyrkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Ravenous Trap

For apparent reasons, this build should yield better gold fishing results. It is in a tournament environment when facing Aggro (less 'Fog' ability, although we still have Turnabout) and Counterbalance (less bounce ability, see Wipe Away) that we might run into issues with this build. Also note, I didn't post my sideboard for debate, but rather for reference as to what I play in my meta. The Hydroblasts should help in certain Aggro match ups and I have found Tolarian Winds to be quite useful.

[Seraphus]

it seams to me that everytime i write some post here i cause some catastrophic disaster... (for the miss spelling im sorry but for the meaning im not)

my metagame players are not sleeping or with some sort of mental issue btw...

so i will point by point explain why is it to me this list i choose to play the best one and my interpetation of every one card that have been taking some persons of (let just say) surprise...

Btw i m not gone post my sb and i already talk about it: (to remenber)

I am playing this list, because to many times i have turnabout and nothing to do with it, because cryptic does the job of tapping creature and peer of have a 5 impulse!
in my opinion sb is something that a player must "bet" on is personal ideas (but never exclude the core cards: stroke, meditate, turnabout and rebuild) for example i play the third brainfreeze in sb due to the fact that some matchs demands more than one time shot so u will need to combo out again (something wich 2 FOI are very usefull). also sb is a meta calling echoing truth is good in an ichorid meta, repeal for exmple in new combo drak depths, hydroblast for obvious already proven and explained early reasons, disrupt the same wipe way and twincast.

added note: i don't like mystical tutor to the fact that it demands card disavantage


continuing...

4 Brainstrom
3 Opt
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Flash of Insight
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will
1 Peek
1 Peer Through Depths

4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island


why the only two turnabout?

its important (and the awser will come to the point if cryptic is or isn't good versus aggro decks) to look to the list. against zoo or goyfslight and other aggro deck solidarity doesnt need to have high counting mana floating probably its going to be used only 4-5 untap spells to untap lands and turnabout isnt that good or else cryptic (and every one is talking about cryptic converted mana cost) wouldnt suck. Cryptic effect is 2 effects for 4 cmc turnabout is 1 effect for 4 cmc. Cryptic tap all creatures (witch can finishing up the brainfreeze worcks) can draw (i hope that no one cames to ask why is that good), can counter (the letal fireblast or some fire spell on the stack and tap creatures) can bonce (little things called Grim lavamancer - lavamancer can kill us on upkeep phase if we are left with only two life- and canonist).
And again look at the decklist the remand on the fireblast kills it and make us draw and between remanding draw and the spell recast can occure a lot of things.
Many times we found that we r forced into wish sonner than in other matchs due to the fact of missing one piece of the combo (as Muse say it "our time is running out") then the stroke it's hardly played. btw an early remand on goyf (or big treat) is very well played (but with only two remands i think that is hard it apears...

The peer question...

the peer throught deepths arrives as a 5th impulse (sure impulse is better in early game but wizards says that only 4 cards of the same non basicland card is allowed, not my fault) it replaces the 4th remand due to a lot of times (as so happens with turnabout whitout any good target to it. Peer alow us to dig in early game to and in late game is ussefull to find high tide or some other piece. and as impulse it get ride of the crap we put on top after brainstorming...

peek is very good, solidarity can win games if peek hits the table like games against mono blue and other crap like that even fish (wich the secret is placed in how u play with the standstill on the table, for those who don't know it's secret from part of solidarity is the 1 mana cost spells that aren't high tide and remenber that everything it's instant).

for finishing im going to refering my self to the twincast main or sb question.
6 decks:
1-NAYA ZOO: twincast what? lightining hellix? (in my point of viewing is the best "twincastable" spell) it only kills the nacatl and kird ape sure and give us 3 life: remand stops some at end of turn spell and early treats

1 AGAINST

2- ANT STORM: 100% favor twincast orim chat is amanzing

1 A 1 F

3- ICHORID: i can´t think any card that is "twincastable" (sorry)

2A 1F

4- DISCARD DECKS LIKE EVA GREEN ETC...: u going to do it on what? vindicate? may be hym? what do he cares sure that confidant is already on table...

3A 1F

5- COUNTER DECKS COUNTER WAR: Great use amazing it works very well...

3A 2F

6- STOMPY OR STAX DECKS- real treats are artifacts some can be menaged by cryptic others no...

4A 2F...

BUT AS SOMEONE SAID EARLY THOSE O LIKE AND CAN PLAY WITH IT ON MAIN DO IT SO...

If someone what me to explain something more of my choises just ask...
gadly thanks

[TheyCallMeTim]

Why cut Turnabout for Cryptic Command when you can cut CC for Twincast? I read through your post and all points are certainly valid. Additionally, as I mentioned earlier, I too like the versatility of the card. However, Turnabout can be a great Swiss knife as well: (1) Untap my lands (2) Tap your creatures (3) Tap your land (4) Tap your artifacts. Meanwhile, the addition of Twincast gives us a number of things, first and foremost excellent card advantage as a copy of Meditate (should be added as an 'in favor' argument to ever conceivable match-up). While that's the draw side of Cryptic Command we can also copy a Counterspell (or the original targeted spell) and find bounce as a copy of Cunning Wish. This configuration of -2 CC, +2 Twincast (with 3 Turnabout) can do everything that the previous build can do and then some, and most of the time at a reduced casting cost. If you consider this slot as either Cryptic Command or Twincast and a Peek as a replacement for an Opt, what you've effectively done is taken the basic build and removed a Turnabout for a Peer Through Depths. The seems highly inadvisable to me.