no, there are always room for little nuances, and allowances for personal style/meta... but a 21 land base is more than fine in mono red... and I don't think he plays crafter, though I could be wrong, it could be a recent addition... My own differences is I play all 8 hasters and 8 lackey's... mostly because I like the ultra explosiveness of the deck...Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Personally, I think 3 SGC is the new hottness... try 3 for a while, it's way consistent for the lackey, even with 7, just try it, then try 2 for a while, see which you prefer
I went 4-1 with my build in a small tournament last night, winning a Revised Scrubland. At least the local shop is trying!
Anyway, here is my list:
4 X Aether Vial
4 X Goblin Lackey
4 X Goblin Piledriver
2 X Stingscourger (I couldn't find any more!)
1 X Warren Instigator (All I have, but I'm not sure I would want too many more)
4 X Goblin Warchief
4 X Goblin Matron
4 X Goblin Cheiftain
3 X Gempalm Incinerator
4 X Goblin Ringleader
3 X Siege-gang Commander
17 X Mountain
4 X Wasteland
2 X Rishadan Port
Sideboard:
4 X Thorn of Amethyst
3 X Relic of Progenitus
2 X Tormod's Crypt
2 X Anarchy
2 X Engineered Explosives
1 X Shattering Spree
1 X Goblin Tinkerer
I was originally going to play Dreadstill, but I realized that I never received my Trinket Mages back when I loaned out the deck before. That put me in a tough spot. Since I was loaning out Dredge to one friend, Belcher was out of the question. Another friend had The Burninator, so I was left with the only deck I have kept in my possession since time began.
Round 1: Will playing Elementals
OK, I feel kind of bad pounding little kids. I have talked to some of the younger people in the store and try to explain to them that Legacy is MUCH cheaper than playing Standard. I even offered to help him out and trade him some core goblins. With all the extras that people have floating around, I would say there is at least 2-3 goblin decks that could be put together. Anyway, I win 2-0. He tells me that goblins sure are fast.
Games: 2-0
Matches: 1-0
Round 2: Steve playing burn
Sweet. I get to play against my own deck. Teched out to beat Goblins when everyone used to play them.
Game 1: I roll him off of a nutty draw the turn before he would have killed me. It included Chieftain, Matron for another Cheiftain.
Game 2: He must have seen the most incredible 5 card Burn hand in the history of the world. He had to mull and I had Thorn in my opener. He sees just enough land and topdecks the final one he needs to beat me with Fireblast. Those maindeck Flamebreaks (and the fourth from the side) are pretty good against Goblins.
Game 3: Again I have a turn two Thorn, and again he sees two Flamebreaks to ruin my day. I have him down to 2 life and just need to see anything, but I peel land, land, land, aether vial. That gives him enough time to finish me off.
Games: 3-2
Matches: 1-1
Round 3: Jessen playing Mono-White Stax
Game 1: I have aether vial turn one. He drop a morphed exalted angel turn two, and I add a counter to vial and drop a lackey. He morphs his angel but decides to stay home, but I vial in Stingscourger to clear the way and hilarity ensues.
Game 2: Again I have aether vial turn one. I think this is crucial in this match up because we need to keep up when it comes to permanents to turn their smokestacks against them. Oh, and SGC is pretty good in that regard, too. He manages to throw out an early exalted angel and gets three free swings with it to gain 12 life and put me at eight with a Smokestack in play. I cast Anarchy, nuking his angel and his Oblivion Ring, which gave me a Piledriver. Next turn I sacced a matron or some other inconsequential goblin, dropped my fifth land, and played SGC. The game was over shortly after that.
Games: 5-2
Matches: 2-1
Round 4: Nick playing Legacy teched Hypergenesis Combo
Game 1: My beats are pretty fast despite his turn one suspended Hypergenesis. I just made sure to connect with Lackey into Ringleader twice (TWICE!) to make sure I had a ton of hotness when that Hypergenesis went off.
Game 2: I stick him under a Thorn of Amethyst and Rishadan Port. Meanwhile, I have an active vial. Good times, quick game.
Games: 7-2
Matches: 3-1
Top 4: Derek playing Belcher
Well, it was a good run. I have some sideboard material, but probably not enough to battle this thing. I would put my chances at winning this match at about 2 percent. I wish I had Dreadstill, or I would get paired against the other two players, who were Steve with Burn (Nice job, who says a $60 deck can't compete) and Jamie with Reanimator shenanigans.
Game 1: I make an aether vial, he makes 10 goblins. There was actually a point where I could have actually gone lackey from vial, Cheiftain hardcast, SGC from lackey had I known that I would topdeck a lackey and not automatically upped the counter on my vial. Oh well.
Game 2: Well, I am going first and my opening grip contains a Thorn of Amethyst and an Engineered Explosives, so I keep and lead Mountain, go. He draws his turn one, drops a Lion's Eye Diamond and passes the turn! I drop Thorn on turn two and he has to pick it up to see what it does. Frowns. I storm over with hoards of angry green men while he tries to figure out how to pay to play his Lotus Petals.
Game 3: I mull down to five (two totally unkeepable hands) and keep a hand with 3 X mounains, 1 X Goblin Lackey, 1 X Thorn of Amethyst. He starts ramping up on turn one and casts Manamorphose, frowns. Another manamorphose, frowns. Tinder Wall, go. I drop Lackey on my turn one. He draws for turn two, sighs, says go. I drop Thorn of Amethyst and swing with Lackey, pretending I forgot to drop something before passing the turn. I thought it was going to be Lackey beats for 20 turns because I continued to draw mountains, but eventually SGC showed up to hasten my opponent's departure.
Games: 9-3
Matches: 4-1
Final: Jamie playing Reanimator packing Iona, Shield of Emeria.
Jamie defeated Steve with my burn build in 3 games. In the last one, he got off a duress and two Hymn to Tourach's, which wrecks that deck. We agree to split the prize. he takes 6 Zendikar packs and I take the Scrubland. What the hell, I am slowly trying to accumulate the duals again after selling off my complete set a few years back. I figured it was a good choice because if he gets Iona out, I am pretty much screwed. Plus, Reanimator has that random luck factor where it can be absolutely unstoppable.
We do decide to play it out for fun anyways, and I win 2-1. Relics and Tormod's Crypts are some good, as I won games 2 and 3.
Overall thoughts:
- I am not sure if I like 23 lands or 22. I would like to run 22.5.
- Goblin Chieftain is a bomb.
- Warren Instigator is good when he is good, but I often found I didn't have enough goblins to drop with him. The double red is a bit of a bugger as well. Lackey is strictly better, obviously.
- Everyone should play 3 Siege-Gang Commanders. Especially if you are running any number of Instigators.
- Goblin Stingscourger was much better than I gave it credit for. I will be adding a third.
- What the heck. I know this wasn't a huge tournament for a wonderful prize, but I think we get much more out of reading tournament reports rather than simply pontificating and theorizing. In fact, real play against real situations and random decks is sometimes even better than focused playtesting, although playtesting clearly has a huge and important place in learning to pilot a deck.
@ nameless one, I don't think you should copy my build if you don't like my build. In reality I'm just another goblins player. Do what works for you. Every meta is different so that is another huge factor. If 21/22 land fits your personal playstyle, so be it, play that. The same applies to the chieftain count. Play what wins (but make sure you have an effective way of judging what wins).
I think your deck is past being suboptimal (such as not playing instigator) and you can focus on tweaking it to your personal playstyle.
Not to say I don't advocate for my build and specifically the 23 land/3 SGC setup. I really enjoy mine.
+1, meta should account for the tweaks to the 'standard' list... as such, the nuances might differ slightly (such as the 2 flex spots in TT, or whatev) according to what you see on a regular basis...
that being said, I think you'd be a fool not to run Instigator, at least 3x
Happy turkey day everyone!!
Instigator resembles piledriver as much as he does lackey. With extra lords on the table he's just silly.
Ive dropped to 2 instigator in my list also running only 2 chieftain main. instigator seems to be clogging my hand, I also run 22 land with the full 4 wasteland and 3 ports in my deck. I run 3 SCG and no tricky creatures like Kiki, or crafter so I can run 3 fanatic main. At least for this upcoming tournament in RI where I expect alot of Ichorid, bant survival and zoo. Fanatic is still really decent in my opinion. In the mirror since most lists have dropped him I think I would have the upper hand by running him.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
very true, I think instigator is much better than piledriver, he's a lackey that can beat down like mad.... so cutting piledrivers if you need room for instigator is a good idea
Usually I'm having this huge problem against zoo: lackeys never do anything. I rarely get that t1 lackey t2 stingscourge their nacatl play, and often they prefer to leave mana open for a bolt. Is it ok to side the lackeys out? And by the way, how good is Lightning Bolt in the deck? I guess that'd give us a boost against zoo.
Id agree with cutting piledriver for instigator but i think this should be only a single since piledriver is still nuts with warchief/ringleader stuff.
i also run the 2/2 split instigator/chieftain. maybe ill add a third chieftain and cut 1 warchief. not sure yet.
also i decided to throw leyline out of the board. it wasnt as good as expected. but i like planar void atm. very good against canadian :)
current list:
// Lands
3 [B] Badlands
2 [LRW] Auntie's Hovel
6 [BD] Mountain (2)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [6E] Swamp (3)
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [REW] Wasteland
// Creatures
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
2 [MOR] Earwig Squad
// Spells
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
SB: 1 [MOR] Earwig Squad
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 1 [R] Goblin King
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 2 [US] Planar Void
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
There was a debate about this very idea like 40-80 pages back in the thread or something. Search for it, the whole debate is around a page long. I know Media likes to side out lackeys but I am personally against it.
I think what was determined from that mess was:
Most always side out 'gators if you run them: unlike vs thresh, they will likely not keep your opponent's small number of threats on defense, as zoo runs 20ish creatures as opposed to 10sih, and zoo will likely have removal for them if they would otherwise connect. I side out lackeys on the draw, and keep them in on the play, as waste +lackey can force a trade with nacatl, and goblins' manabase is more stable than zoo's, so the tempo and manabase hit for them in that situation is pretty huge. IMO, whether or not you side out lackeys and when is just like the 'correct' number of drivers/scourgers/gators/war marshals/lands in the main: It depends on your meta, playstyle, and preference. There are many viable goblins builds, and thus there are hardly ever any building/playing/sideboarding strategies that are 'always correct' other than "Do not cut lackies, vials, matrons, or ringleaders from the MB. Ever."
I am currently running the following list:
16 Mountains
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
3 Warren Instigator
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Open Slot
This built feels a little slower than my pre-Zendikar Goblins but it is more resilient and more explosive. Although, with my current playtesting, The deck has been studdering at the last 2 damages. I actually added Lightning Crafter to deal with this, as well as it adds resilency as I will be championing 'comes into play' goblins.
I havent really thoroughly playtested with Lightning Crafter but he seems to do the job. I am split with Kiki-Jiki on this slot because he could also pull of tricks in the field, such as incoming 'CIP' goblins. He does suck when is all by himself, but so does Goblin Piledriver.
I was thinking of reducing Goblin Warchief to 3 to add another Siege-Gang Commander as Goblin Chieftain can also provide haste. I also dont might Siege-Gang Commander because my list is running 7-lackey effects and 4 Vials and they provide good card advantage late game. Not to mention that they can go for the last 2 damage reach.
So, should I run Lightning Crafter/Kiki-Jiki/Siege-Gang Commander on that last open slot? I used to run 23 Mountains and found that I do not mind having 22 Mountains. Also, is it worth to run 3 Warchiefs and 3 Chieftains (-1 Warchief) in favor of Siege-Gang Commander?
And has anyone tried Valakut or the CIPT hurts its chances?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
run chieftain #4 it rocks tits
Valakut seems awful. You must reach 7 lands in play or else the effect won't trigger; you open yourself to nonbasic hate; it comes into play tapped. Seems fucking awful.
The 4th Chieftain is actually in my SB, along with a lone Liege (I only own one as of now).
Question: could Blood Moon actually help with Zoo m/u? Especially if its backed up with Goblin King?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Goblin King isn't really all that good, Mogg War Marshals are better than that against zoo. Btw, I'm running this list now:
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
18 [ZEN] Mountain (3)
// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Matron
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
3 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
Any constructive criticism? I'm really insecure about cutting piledriver down to 1, 2 seems like a decent number.
1 Piledriver is Fine. But run 2 if you have nothing better to put in.
What do you side in-out agains't zoo with that list?
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Usually I go -3 Warren Instigator -2 Piledriver -1 Gempalm Incinerator -1 Chieftain, +3 Mogg War Marshal, +3 Pyrokinesis, +1 Boartusk liege.
About the piledriver slot: I'm not that big of a fan of Warren Instigator. 8 Lackey effects feel like too much, and sometimes I need more than 1 Piledriver, in case one of them gets StPed or something like that.
@ Cyrus, I would consider boarding out a Siege-Gang Commander because 3 can be very clunky against zoo. It's great, but seeing more than one, especially early, is absolutely horrible. I would keep the gempalm in because it is very important for killing grim lavamancer and helps you make the transition from defensive to offensive. It's also good when your opponent casts a board sweeper post-sb.
I'm personally doing -3 Instigator, -3 Piledriver, -1 Siege-Gang Commander, +5 aggro hate (3/2 Pyrokinesis/Jitte), +2 Goblin Chieftain. I think it is very important to have a focused attack plan against the deck and that factors into my boarding decisions here. I believe that playing against zoo takes a little more precision and "looking at the forest rather than the individual trees" to reliably pull out wins. Goblin Chieftain makes ringleader and stingscourger 3/3, the two creatures that are ass-savers in the matchup, and 3/3 is a very holy number in this matchup: nacatl, ape, lavamancer, pridemage (exalted or no), and also helps you transition from defensive to offensive. That said I think it is still very important to not fall into combat trick traps. I'm still undecided if I'd rather have Chieftain than piledrivers/instigators, but right now I think it is working okay.
So, I've been looking at some lists lately, and saw 2 things that cought my attention, and wonder if anyone used already:
-2 Lists in Top 8 with 3 Pyroknesis maindeck.
Could it be that good? I mean, if you have a Zoo/Goblins/Folk metagame, it coul be a nice call.
-1 List with 4xCaller of the Claw SB. I really liked the idea. You'd had to be Rgx, but thats not a big problem. I can't wait to test it. Have anyone ever did test this?
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
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