It can be efficient. If you think you are 2 cards down, spinning top can be a manner to line up 2 of 3 cards to go off, and you just may, but that's a clear indicator that your hand lacks tutors and a possible dropped clue for your opponent to go off without abandon or to play a resource/hand disruption game instead of counter disruption.Originally Posted by emidln
Following the qualifications of my statement, that if you have other stuff to do (stuff being Brainstorm/Ponder) it's inefficient, you're absolutely wrong. If you spin top, then draw, then play Brainstorm or Ponder you get to see a total of 4 cards. If you play a fetch on your turn before Brainstorm/Ponder, you see a total of 6 cards. If you draw for the turn, then play Brainstorm or Ponder and later spin top (assuming you can't go off), you have now seen 5 cards. If you break a fetch before spinning the top, you see 7 cards.
5 > 4
7 > 6
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Ah, I wasn't sure if you meant Brainstorm/Ponder was the 'something else'. Either way, it would depend. If digging for a land drop and not expecting to go off that turn, then I am a little more prone to top beforehand. If digging for a mana source or tutor, no. I am a little more passive with Brainstorm use, as I tend to see it as the only 'out' for anti-discard, on top of Doomsday stack synergies et al.
If you only have one land, topping in your upkeep is still wrong. You should draw your card and Brainstorm so that you see 4 cards instead of only 3.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I´m actually trying out all different approaches on ANT to find the list I like the most and maybe play it at Madrid. I´ve already tested TES, NLS and ANT-DD-Hybrid with quite some sucess, but I never was satisfied with the lists.
Could maybe Bahamuth or someone else post a list with the Empty the Warrens SB-Strategie? I want to test it at the next tournament to find out if it fits me better :) I´d probably start with a straight ANT list with 3 (4?) Tops MD and more Acceleration than the hybrid. Maybe like this:
// Lands
1 [ZEN] Island (1)
1 [R] Tundra
1 [ZEN] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [A] Scrubland
// Spells
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [M10] Duress
3 [M10] Ponder
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
// Sideboard 12 Cards
SB: 4 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 [R] Volcanic Island
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [4E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
Thanks in advice,
jan
DCI: 68 10 43 34
Not always, but you are correct that it is mathematically more efficient against most matchups. I am merely pointing at a difference in playstyle... like if you were facing a deck with potential discard capability (Dredge more and more now). Then I would personally be prone to top for a land instead of drawing then brainstorming depending on my read of an opponent in some instances, putting the risk/reward more on the ability to protect from a discard effect than possibly missing a land-drop by only digging 3 instead of 4.
Topping for more land leaves Brainstorm vulnerable in your hand without digging as far should you not hit your land. You want to see more lands as far as possible against LD to prevent Sinkhole/Wasteland/Vindicate ruining you. The more lands you get, the better developed your position to abuse SDT which makes the matchup much easier.
This isn't a difference in playstyle. This is poor decision making when you're playing combo.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Thank you for this post, this will most likely get copy-pasted into the Threshold threads when the timing is appropriate.
I'm not sure whether you already mentioned it but playing Brainstorm during your own turn is actually what people should do. I think there are still a lot of people who are somehow tempted by it's Instant-speed for reasons that are not clear yet...
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
When people say "spin the top," which ability of SDT are they referring to? Looking or drawing?
I use this to refer to looking. I use cash in or draw for drawing.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Hmm, I almost always activate Top during upkeep, unless I only have 1 land in hand. If my opening hand is: Top, Ponder, land, random cards then I am always going to play the Top first (especially if you don't know what you are playing against) then draw my card for turn and play Ponder.
But, if the opening hand is: Brainstorm, Top, Land, fetch, random cards then I am going to activate Top first everytime. If I have a shuffle effect + an open mana I almost always use Top. I try to see a fresh top 3 as often as I can. With Ponder in hand I will almost always play it first before I look with Top, regardless of mana in hand. This has worked out for me.
When Brainstorm is in hand it really depends on the other cards in hand and if I have a shuffle effect. I usually try to look with Top first, especially if I don't have a shuffle effect, but in the instances where I don't have a second mana drop I will usually cast Brainstorm after I draw, without looking.
The more you play the deck the less confusing it gets, but the whole point of this is to save my cantrip effects until I need them. You never know when +1 storm will have made the difference in the game. Just think a little ahead at what order will let you maximize your chances of seeing the most cards thus giving you the best chance at winning the game. Also, with Top in play I try to save Brainstorm as much as I can. There are numerous situations where you have to put back IGG or AdN but don't have enough mana to cast it, but you have an LED or 2 in hand and had you played the Brainstorm earlier, you would not be winning this turn. Situations like this are what matter, and small plays like adding extra storm with Tops or recognizing IT + DRit chains. Being able to recognize the small stuff like this is essential to being a successful combo player!
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Dudes can someone help me with the sideboard of the deck? please...
i dont how to side... every time i look at it all the cards seem too good to side out....
by the way this is the list im playing
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29258
thanxs
So if you have one land, a top, and no cantrips in hand, is it right to top on your second turn upkeep to look for a second land? I would think that digging for more land would be more important than tutoring anything on that second turn. Thoughts?
In general I would do this, assuming I don't have like LED, Rit, Petal, Mystical. So, just a long as there is no other way to abuse the Top I would always activate it with my only land because here is how I look at it: when not activating during upkeep you get to see 4 cards instead of 3, however, you are drawing a totally random card and then activating Top assuming you don't draw what you need and then have to activate it to put the card you need in your hand (assuming you hit it). And a lot of the time it is going to be a fetch so you can't even use the land till next turn unless you want to lose Top.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
This depends on how critically you need to see another land before your opponent's next turn. Against Eva Green, I would not spin SDT in the upkeep hoping to maximize the number of cards I see. Against Stax or Chalice aggro, I'm very likely to spin the SDT on my upkeep if there is any chance at all that IMS + spell might win me the game. Against blue, I'm usually going to spin the first time in my upkeep and then if I don't find a land, draw my card for turn 3 and spin in my main phase.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I agree with you on strategy against Eva Green and decks with Chalice, but I was wondering why you choose to top in your mainphase against blue. You're definite not going to draw with a resolved SDT on turn 3 just to hit a land drop on top, that seems horribly inefficient.
Basically, why not wait until their end step? Or does it not matter?
I've been blown out by my opp's turn 3 md KGrip. Mostly doesn't matter, but I'm kinda paranoid.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Hm, I don't like that. I personally always Top in my upkeep in this case. I consider making land drops to be much more important than seeing one extra card. The Hybrid can't really win without some land in play (well it can, but almost never does). I can get into the play you describe against blue. I've never done that before though. Might also have something to do with the fact that I'm hesitant to keep 1-land hands against blue.
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
I played yesterday at Tom Shea's Dual Lands tournament in Milford, MA. My list:
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Orim's Chant
4 Duress
1 Silence
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Mystical Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Krosan Grip
1 Tropical Island
2 Silence
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Rebuild
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Infest
Round 1 - Todd w/ Dragon Stompy
Game 1: He wins the dice roll. He presents his deck to me, and I shuffle it once and cut it, then as I'm handing it back to him, the deck kind of falls apart and some of the cards end up face up. We call a judge, and he gives me a warning for looking at extra cards. I feel terrible, and was actually expecting a game loss for this. It was a totally shady thing to do, even though I didn't mean to do it, but at this point I know exactly what he's playing. I keep a hand of 2 Ponder, Island, Tundra, 2 Orim's Chant, something else. I figure I can use the Chants to Time Walk for a couple turns, and Ponder into awesome shit. Unfortunately, on his first turn he goes SSG, Tomb/City, Magus of the Moon. I spend a couple turns Pondering, but don't get anything useful. On his 3rd or 4th turn he drops Trinisphere, and I decide to scoop soon after that so he doesn't know what I'm playing (I had only played Island, Tundra, Fetch Lands, Ponders).
Sideboard: -4 Orim's Chant, -1 Silence, +2 Hurkyll's, +1 Rebuild, +1 Chain, +1 Diamond
Game 2: I keep a good, although not terribly fast hand. It had 2 lands and Hurkyll's, and some business (don't remember exactly what). I do something and pass. On his first turn he goes Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb, Trinisphere. I don't really care about this at the time, because I figure I can just draw one more land and Hurkyll's him. I draw the third land, he plays a Magus that I don't care about (I have both basics at this point). After 3-4 turns I go for Hurkyll's at his EOT with a clear win on my next turn. Unfortunately he plays PYROBLAST. I was not expecting that. Blown out.
0-1
I thought people were pretty much done with Dragon Stompy, so this is clearly an unfortunate matchup. I also didn't think people sideboarded REBs, so it's doubly unfortunate. I actually don't mind the matchup post board, but a REB certainly can throw a wrench in the gears.
Round 2 - Brent w/ CounterTop Painter
Game 1: He wins the dice roll and plays Volcanic Island, go. I keep the dream hand: Petal, Petal, LED, Chrome Mox, Orim's Chant, Silence, Infernal Tutor. On my turn I draw Dark Rit, making my hand a wet dream. I imprint Chant, Silence, he plays Brainstorm, then FOWs my Silence, I play out the rest of my hand and IT for Tendrils @ 20 without even having to IGG or Ad Nauseam.
Game 2: I didn't see much of his deck, so I don't even know if he's running Counterbalance. I sideboard -3 Duress, +2 Silence, +1 Krosan Grip. He ends up landing a Counterbalance on turn 2, and I MT for Krosan Grip and sit on it for several turns trying to find mana to cast it (notice I forgot to side in Tropical Island). I eventually find a Petal, but by that time he has a second Counterbalance. I try to go off through blind Counterbalance, but my Silence reveals a Top on top of his library. I can't go off through CB @ 1, so on his turn I Orim's Chant him to try to keep him from playing Top. Unfortunately he has the FOW, so CounterTop closes me out, then Grindstone finishes me off.
Game 3: I side in the rest of my Krosan Grips. I have a pretty boss hand, but my Mystical Tutor at his EOT meets a REB, leaving me with like 3 Rits, LED, Petal, etc. I proceed to draw more mana for a few turns while a Goyf plows me like a cornfield. I start playing Chants with kicker on his turn to buy myself time, but the business spell never comes. I get beaten to death.
0-2
This match was very winnable, especially after stealing game 1. It was just a matter of finding one key spell at the right time, which didn't happen. At this point, I'm very much out of contention for Top 8. However, the two guys I rode with are still very much in contention, so I decide to play a few rounds in the loser's bracket.
Round 3 - Greg w/ Survival
Game 1: He wins the dice roll and drops an Aether Vial. I have 2 IT, LED, Petal, C Rit, lands. I nearly give the game away, though. On my second or third turn, instead of playing IT for LED, I play LED first, so then I have to IT for C Rit and pass the turn. At this point he has Vial @ 2 and Survival on board. I am waiting for him to Survival for Gaddock Teeg and Vial him in there. Fortunately, he doesn't have him maindeck, so all my worrying is for nothing.
Game 2: He rips my hand apart with Thoughtseizes and Therapies, then beats me to death with monsters.
Game 3: He rips my hand apart again, but this time he doesn't have much of a clock. I eventually rip Ad Nauseam off the top and go to town. That's the problem with discard, I guess.
1-2
Round 4 - My opponent doesn't show up. The joys of the X-2 bracket.
2-2
Round 5 - Stefan w/ CounterTop
Game 1: I actually have a pretty rockin' hand, but I slow play it a little digging for a Chant. I go through all 4 Brainstorms this game, shuffling after each one (nice). I eventually find the Chant and go off. Turns out he didn't have much of a hand, and was just digging for Counterbalance, which he never found.
Game 2: He starts out with land, Tormod's Crypt. I keep a hand with 2 Krosan Grip, and plenty of mana. He finds and plays a Counterbalance on turn 2-3, which I immediately Grip. After another turn or so I Grip his Tormod's Crypt so I can keep my Threshold, then go off. Always nice to beat CounterTop.
3-2
Round 6 - Jeremy w/ The Rock
Game 1: I win pretty easily after a few turns, just when a Tarmogoyf starts breathing down my neck.
Game 2: I'm very distracted going into this game due to the fact that the guy sitting right next to me was arguing and full-on YELLING at his opponent and the judge. It goes a little something like this: the guy was riffle shuffling his deck. His opponent (who was also a judge) said he was shuffling in a way that made his cards visible to both his opponent and himself. When the guy presented his deck, his opponent called the judge and said that the guy presented a deck that was not sufficiently randomized, so the judge gave him a game loss. True story. I would have been pissed too. Anyway, I mulligan and for some reason keep a hand that's something like Tundra, Tundra, IT, D Rit, Duress, C Rit. Yeah, that's right. Anyway, I get beaten to death by 3 Tarmogoyfs before I find a way to cast any of my spells.
Game 3: I Ad Nauseam early and win easily. Legacy is a game of matchups.
I finish 4-2, which is good enough for 11th place (worst tie breakers of all the 12-pointers). I really like my build of this deck, and wouldn't change a thing. Matchups can just be a bitch sometimes. There was a lot of CounterTop at the tournament, but I feel like that's a winnable matchup. I think I could win 40-45% of my matches against CounterTop. There were also several other people playing combo at the tournament, but frankly most of them were terrible. The guy who made Top 8 was ok, but I don't think he was even packing Krosan Grips in the board, which is a huge mistake. Every other combo player I saw at the tournament was utterly worthless. I blame the World's results.
How do you like playing 2 Chomes instead of 3? Did you notice it hindered you at all? I just picked up ANT and im fine tuning right now. Was also why you play Krosan Grip over Wipe Away, I feel like Wipe Away is just strictly better since you dont need to take up another SB slot for Tropical.
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