[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[Anusien]

I'm pretty sure that list wants Hedron Crab. Although I'll admit, I'm skeptical of its ability to hit {1}{G} on turn 2 or even turn 3 after trying to cast Putrid Imp or Careful Study on turn 1.

[Aleksandr]

This list recently won a largeish tournament.

Interesting list, namely the sideboard.

What I like is the LftL idea. I already tinkered with it (just with the idea, not that I build some list), because it is so hot with the Colliseum! And as we play dredge lands and mostly start the game with a rainbow land, we can get to two mana even with a turn1 Breakthrough.
Yeah, it is a bit slow, also losing the rainbow land to Waste means "screw the LftL", but I still like it somehow

Btw, what do you think of Deep Analysis in LED-less?

[Anusien]

Btw, what do you think of Deep Analysis in LED-less?

I don't like it. It's a blank card until you're already winning. If you want to go that route, Loam is a better card because it dredges.

Edit: I'm beginning to become a fan of Darkblast, at least in theory. It barely Dredges, but it's good in a lot of awkward situations. They can't use just counters to keep you from Dredging it, and it's a way to get started. Plus you can randomly cast it in the midgame.

[Aleksandr]

I don't like it. It's a blank card until you're already winning. If you want to go that route, Loam is a better card because it dredges.

Edit: I'm beginning to become a fan of Darkblast, at least in theory. It barely Dredges, but it's good in a lot of awkward situations. They can't use just counters to keep you from Dredging it, and it's a way to get started. Plus you can randomly cast it in the midgame.

I like it too, it can be helpful, even in the mirror (killing their PImp / our Moeba). But what to cut?

[Illissius]

Interesting list, namely the sideboard.

Transformatively boarding into creatures which are themselves somewhat vulnerable to grave hate is a bit odd. Grave hate is usually Crypt so Tarmogoyf is probably fine, but I'm pretty sure I'd use something else like Clique or Putrid Leech or whatever rather than Tombstalker.

[sunshine]

Unless they know you boarded into Goyf+Tombstalker most players won't blow a crypt against dredge in the first couple turns, especially if there's a permanent outlet on the table as they (understandably) want to get the most value out of the crypt. It seems a little odd at first, but after thinking about it I'm not really sure it's such an issue.

[paK0]

Transformatively boarding into creatures which are themselves somewhat vulnerable to grave hate is a bit odd.

This

And most Decks don't scoop to a single Goyf or Stalker if you cannot back em up.




@Darkblast. Tried it and it's hot. I'm on Ichorids right now so I wanna have the Thugs but f I'd run Bloodghast I would not hesitate to cut Thugs for Darkblasts.

[Anusien]

I like it too, it can be helpful, even in the mirror (killing their PImp / our Moeba). But what to cut?

@Darkblast. Tried it and it's hot. I'm on Ichorids right now so I wanna have the Thugs but f I'd run Bloodghast I would not hesitate to cut Thugs for Darkblasts.

As far as I can tell, the primary goal of the deck should be to get to the point where you are dredging and have a way to keep dredging (even if it's just having Dredgers in the graveyard) and can start attacking. The dedicated Dread Return targets don't help you get to this point. And I find it hard to believe you can't win once you have the resources to cast Dread Return. So here's the list I'd recommend:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe

4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough

4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel

[Aleksandr]

Unless they know you boarded into Goyf+Tombstalker most players won't blow a crypt against dredge in the first couple turns, especially if there's a permanent outlet on the table as they (understandably) want to get the most value out of the crypt. It seems a little odd at first, but after thinking about it I'm not really sure it's such an issue.

That's it...

EDIT: Anusien, do you play enough black creatures to support four Ichorids? Also: Why no FKZ?

[4eak]

@ Anusien

Yes, but that's why we have computers, to perform difficult and tedious tasks for us..... But there are only 386206920 different opening hands.

Some tasks might be too difficult for even a computer to accomplish in short periods of time. You realize that I usually need to compare a multitude of decklists. That number grows quickly.

Finding all the configurations for so many decklists is probably outside the feasible computing range (by a few orders) of a quick scripting language while working on the fly. Why wait for hours (days, etc.) for an answer when I can wait 100 seconds for something which likely provides just as significantly accurate an answer as the other?

I'm not skilled, just a tinkerer, so any help you can provide would be appreciated.

Well, going on the DDD plan without a discard outlet is basically the worst thing ever.

Less hyperbole please. You can still get turn 3 wins from DDD w/no Discard outlet (and turn 2 if you played FKZ, which I believe neither of us recommend). It is far from "the worst thing ever". The DDD plan without a Discard outlet OR a Draw card is certainly awful though, but frankly, any hand is terrible without at least one of those.

It's super slow.

How much slower? Have you really sat down to look at the numbers on this one? PImp/Tribe have the most effect for speed when you have 2 or more dredgers + Draw (there are other contributions, but this is by far the largest contribution to speed these discard outlets provide). In this respect, you have more reason to be playing 14 dredgers (instead of that 11-dredger list you recommended).

There are differences, but I don't find DDD is to "super slow" compared to many Discard Outlet-based hands. It depends on how you choose to play your hand out in many cases. Check this hand:

[CoB, GMine, PImp, GGT, Study, Narco, Ichorid, (Top Card= Bridge)]

T1= Land->PImp->GGT
T2= Dredge GGT->Land->Check if you Dredged a Dredger->Pitch GGT->Study

T1= DDD plan with GGT
T2= Dredge GGT->Check if you Dredged a Dredger->If yes, possibly Land->Study, if no, DDD GGT

I'm not arguing the optimality of strategy in this example, I'm just showing that it isn't much slower if you don't want it to be. If PImp resolves and lives, DDD certainly isn't as good at chain-dredging, and there are higher risks by not Dredging a Dredger. Those risks are curbed by the fact that you can continue to DDD, whether before or after Study.

Land + Discarder + Dredger isn't necessarily better at Dredging than DDD either. Take this hand:

[CoB, GMine, PImp, GGT, Therapy, Narco, Ichorid]

I'm not saying there aren't differences (like using GY goodies trapped in hand), but I think you've exaggerated the speed differences.

I'm also not saying PImp/Tribe aren't great in this deck. Those cards are very good. I just don't seem to find them as necessary as you.

It blanks all the Narcoembas, Bridges, Dread Returns and Ichorids you might have in your hand.

Not exactly true. DDD w/out a discard outlet can still often get trapped cards into the GY. Breakthrough and Study are solid examples (assuming you are referring to permanent-based discarders as the "outlets", as opposed to spells like Therapy and these drawers), and in cases where you've Dredged a Dredger (not hard, especially at high dredge counts), you can Discard a Bridge instead.

How problematic would it be to have a few trapped in hand? The deck is redundant, and Dredging will get you to the multiples as well.

It doesn't really allow you to be strategic around hate....[Dredge is] one of the most fundamentally non-interactive and unfair decks ever.

DDD itself is the strategy against hate; it is a valuable contributer to the "fundamentally non-interactive" characteristics of the deck. You get to force the engine to come online, despite most control strategies. I often DDD even when I open a hand with a singleton PImp/Tribe, especially if I know what I'm up against, simply because my hand would be slowed by several turns if I meet FoW (not an uncommon card to meet).

You can't rely on it to go the distance. So basically you're saying, "I'm going to dredge once while I give you a chance to find counters." Sure, you might dredge into Narcoemba + Cabal Therapy.

Why can't you rely on it? The most potent aspect of permission is not against the cards you play after you've dredged, it is how FoW interacts with your engine starting cards (Draw and discard). Bridge, Ichorid, Narco, and sac-outlets do most of the work against blue, not your discard outlet.

DDD is rarely a total failure, while an FoW on PImp is a failure that can cost you several turns, and your opponent's turn 1 or 2 StP or Bolt on PImp puts you in no better a dredging position (if not worse) than the DDDer who play PImp later.

The only time I can see DDD being reasonable is if you have no discard creatures, but Careful Study and Breakthrough. I'd want at least two blue spells before I go on that plan (because against an unknown opponent, you lose if they have a counter). And even then, I think I'd rather take my chances with a mulligan.

DDD is never the fastest possible play or the sort of play we make from a very good hand. Nevertheless, there are times where DDD is a viable alternative.

[Dredge] mulligans better than maybe any deck in history.

Again, is this hyperbole? Decks with the fewest requirements for opening hands are the decks which can afford to mulligan the most. Cantrip-heavy decks and combat-synergy decks can 'make it work' with less variance in the strength of their hands. I think Goblins and Thresh mull much more effectively than Dredge.

That doesn't mean I don't mulligan with Dredge. But, a decent DDD hand is often better than your random 6. Going on the Draw, and 1st turn DDD is a nice guaranteed consistency without a huge hit in speed, and it also leaves us the option to explode out or play other things in our hand when the time comes.

As far as I can tell, the primary goal of the deck should be to get to the point where you are dredging and have a way to keep dredging (even if it's just having Dredgers in the graveyard) and can start attacking

I recommend playing more Dredgers then. If you are looking for the best ways to get your Library into the GY, and arguably an increase in average speed, then you should up that Dredger count -- 11 is too low.





peace,
4eak

[Anusien]

EDIT: Anusien, do you play enough black creatures to support four Ichorids? Also: Why no FKZ?

The only matchup you really want Flame-Kin Zealot in is combo. No other deck can beat just putting an 8/8 Troll and a bunch of Zombies on the table. Flame-Kin Zealot is flat-out only good when you're winning. If I wanted a maindeck Dread Return target, I think you want one that doesn't require you to already have multiple Bridge from Belows and other setup cards. The cards that do that are Sadistic Hypnotist and Iona, Shield of Emeria. Right now I feel like everyone is going to do their best to stop you at the very beginning of the game, and if you can beat them there, you'll win. So who cares how good or bad your dredges in the midgame if you never get there.

And yes, I think I have enough black creatures to support 4 Ichorids. Sometimes it's one or two short. But you don't have to bring back every Ichorid if you can't afford them. It's more important to bring back an Ichorid early and put pressure on the other guy.

RE: DDD
I'm designing my maindeck to beat counters. The blue decks are getting to the point where you can't race them with DDD alone. I don't think it's worth opening yourself up to Daze to make this a regular part of your play. I'll never actively seek it out. If I happen to be on the draw and open a hand with a dredger, a land or two and multiple draw spells but no Putrid Imp, I may consider it. But I don't seek it out, and the Dredge players I respect don't too.
And let's be honest. You probably can win on turn 3 with DDD alone. But it isn't bloody likely. Relying on DDD is unlikely to chain-dredge, and I've tried it a few times.

Again, is this hyperbole? Decks with the fewest requirements for opening hands are the decks which can afford to mulligan the most. Cantrip-heavy decks and combat-synergy decks can 'make it work' with less variance in the strength of their hands. I think Goblins and Thresh mull much more effectively than Dredge.

Nope. Look, mulliganing with Dredge is so good. Considering half your deck is blank in your hand or worse (Narcomoeba), and when you mulligan you get to put those back. You don't care about card advantage or needing to have more cards in your hand. You can find a 5 card Dredge hand that is as good as its 7 card hands. No one deck can say the same thing.

[Aleksandr]

Interesting thoughts on FKZ. I am not 100% sure if you are right (e.g.: I doubt that we need the FKZ combo only against opposing combo decks; in fact there are many non-combo decks that are fast/bothersome enough - Zoo, Stax, toolbox decks, etc. - to justify our combo finish. That one turn could easily make a difference between winning and losing - right before the Moat hits the table, or Fireblast reaches our head... or Trinket finds the Crypt... or SotF searches for Fae Macabre...), but maybe you're right. Well, if it works for you...?

S.

[sunshine]

Just to put my $.02 into the DDD debate, I (would say I) opt to DDD more often than most - with the exception that I never choose to be on the draw. I don't really have any reservations about choosing to play first, looking at my starting seven and just passing the turn. It's not a route that I actively plan on, but in many cases I think giving the opponent an extra card can be less detrimental than announcing that you're playing dredge before they make mulligan decisions.

[Anusien]

If you have 1 Dredger in hand and 7 other cards when you DDD, you're 66% to hit another dredger based on my list of 4 GGT 4 SImp 2 Thug 1 Darkblast. It's 74% if you dredge with GGT, 67% if you dredge with Stinkweed Imp, 59% if you dredge with Thug, 48% if you dredge with Darkblast. If you cut the darkblast and go down to just 4/4/2, it drops to 64%.

[paK0]

How much would it be for 4/4/3 Darkblast and 4/4/3 Thug?

Right now I run Iona as my target, its the only one that wins with zero Bridges. Thoughts?

[Anusien]

67% and 65%.

[jimirynk]

How much would it be for 4/4/3 Darkblast and 4/4/3 Thug?

Right now I run Iona as my target, its the only one that wins with zero Bridges. Thoughts?

Lark.

[BreathWeapon]

4eak more or less said everything I could say about DDD, but I think Anusien is generalizing Dredge's mulligans, because Dredge does not mulligan well. If you're objective is strategic non-interaction, than mulliganing is counter-intuitive to that objective because it takes away your tools vs U.dec by reducing your hand size to the point where you have to interact with Force of Will in a terrible manner.

Also, I don't get the "DDD" doesn't race U.decs comment either, because sans Natural Order, Dredge's DDD + Bloodghast gets there more often than not and you can strategically discard or Therapy your Bridges and Returns as you go.

Right now, I'm running 4 Undiscovered Paradise and 4 Oboro, Palace in the Cloud just because returning Bloodghasts is so effective in DDD and being able to return your land to your hand after you've been countered is such a speed increase it's ridiculous.

Honestly, if you're designing your deck to beat counters and you're not playing Bloodghast you're doing it wrong IMO.

[Anusien]

Why does Bloodghast beat counters better than Ichorid? Because they hit for less? Because they don't help you build up an army of tokens to race?

It's getting to the point where DDD can't beat race turn 2 Tarmogoyf if they have other relevant spells.

[Grillo]

Lark.

jimirynk, I´ve been trying to find some insights in this thread about why you are using Lark... without any success...

Can you explain this choice to me please.

Thanks mate!