[Deck] 43 Lands

[leander?]

Also, the re-wording on the errata of Tabernacle stops it from killing Progenitus(suck).

I can´t seem to see why it wouldn´t..

[kkoie]

I can´t seem to see why it wouldn´t..

It doesn't. But it does have no effect on indestructible creatures.

[Domel]

idk,the meta im used to is very aggro (elves, merfolk, ichorid, zoo, etc...) so i ran four Chasms main. I dont get why you run Chalice. What's that going to do for you? Also, the re-wording on the errata of Tabernacle stops it from killing Progenitus(suck). Another card i played that did me well was Nantuko Monastary. 4/4 First Striker Man-Land.

Running 4 Chasms main is very interesting and I'll test it for sure. Chalice helps me against Combo but probably running 4 Chasms would be enough (and it gives me more space in SB).
I am not convinced to Monastery - when they pack grave hate against you it is quite useless...

[leander?]

But it does have no effect on indestructible creatures.

Yeah, I'm aware of that, but even Protection From Fucking Everything isn't thát badass that it makes the Pro.dude indestructible.

[Domel]

I have another question - when I play Mox Diamond I have to discard a land immediately or I can wait till opp tells me he will not counter and than discard a land?

Thanks

[Fuzzy]

I have a question for you, guys:

Why this deck plays Mox Diamond? I mean, it looks fine in a heavy Folks w/ B2B or Dragon Stompy meta, but seriously, it's really necessary?

[Media314r8]

I have a question for you guys:

Why DOES this deck plays Mox Diamond? I mean, it looks fine in a Metagame laden with B2B or Dragon Stompy, but seriously, is it really necessary?

Yes. A free land drop that taps for ANY color of mana, avoids armageddon/devestating dreams, and allows for a T1 loam engine being started is indeed necessary in a deck running 43 lands and a life from the loam engine. Is there any other deck more suited to play it?!?!

EDIT: I'm in ur post, fixing ur grammar.

[leander?]

..you have to dicard right away. The oracle text clarifies this:
"If Mox Diamond would enter the battlefield, you may discard a land card instead. If you do, put Mox Diamond onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard."

I'm really sorry but that's nonsense. The oracle clarifies that you're wrong.
"If Mox Diamond would enter the battlefield, you may discard a land card.." means that you're choosing wether to discard a land or not at the moment it would be coming into play. Which is after it has been put on the stack and resolved.

[Domel]

I will ask judge about the mox and post the answer.

@ Media314r8 - +1

@ Fuzzy - Mox gives you a free land drop (any colour of mana is important in 3 colour version). Since the deck runs about 19 colourless/nonmana-giving lands it helps to run the engine smoothly. It is also great when you're on the draw because it gives your manabond/exploration protection from Daze.

@ DownSyndromeKarl - I playtested 2 Chasms main and 1 SB and it worked just fine. I was afraid to run all 4 main because it may cause some mana problems (too many lands giving no mana). Generally 2 main is good enough.

Also Chalice is in my opinion crucial in SB - how you expect to win against ANT? Chasm is great agains Belcher and Ichorid but it does nothing to stop Tendrils of Agony since it causes loss life instead of damage. I would strongly recommend 4 SB.

[chokin]

Someone played a 43 Land deck yesterday. They played vs Bant Thresh+NO and I don't think the guy was able to resolve a NO. He ended up winning via Goyf+2 Trygon Predators and the Noble Hierarch helped with the Tabernacle on the table.

@ Mox Diamond - I think you have to discard it to play it now.

"5/1/2008: If you don't discard a land card, Mox Diamond never enters the battlefield. It won't trigger abilities that look for something entering the battlefield, and you won't get the opportunity to tap it for mana."

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...tiverseid=5193

You may have to click the little + sign to read it.

[FieryBalrog]

Someone played a 43 Land deck yesterday. They played vs Bant Thresh+NO and I don't think the guy was able to resolve a NO. He ended up winning via Goyf+2 Trygon Predators and the Noble Hierarch helped with the Tabernacle on the table.

@ Mox Diamond - I think you have to discard it to play it now.

"5/1/2008: If you don't discard a land card, Mox Diamond never enters the battlefield. It won't trigger abilities that look for something entering the battlefield, and you won't get the opportunity to tap it for mana."

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...tiverseid=5193

You may have to click the little + sign to read it.

You're still mis-reading it. The errata is solely in place so that you can't cast Mox Diamond, have it resolve, tap it for mana while the sacrifice trigger is on the stack (original wording was a trigger) and then let it die without discarding a land. They did this precisely so that Mox Diamond wouldn't be Lotus Petals 5-8 for combo.

What it means now is that if you cast Mox Diamond, have it resolve, the discarding a land is a replacement effect for how Mox Diamond comes into play. If you discard a land, it comes into play, if not, it is put in the graveyard without ever being in play.

This has nothing to do with casting Mox Diamond still. You cast it as normal and pass priority. If your Mox is countered, it simply gets countered, if not, you decide to discard or not upon resolution. In order to have the discard be a cost they would have errata'd the Oracle wording to read: "as an additional cost to play MoxDiamond, discard a land."

(see: Devastating Dreams as an example of that).

[leander?]

I will ask judge about the mox and post the answer.

Ofcourse, if you want to be 100% sure, your best option is to aks a judge. But still, both NesretepNoj and chokin are completely misreading/misinterpreting the oracle text and FieryBalrog illustrates this perfectly. If the Mox is countered you do not need to discard a land.
I'm positive.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

@Domel: I'm not going back to see if you posted a list or not, but do you run any Riftstone Portal? They're nice for fixing the lack-of-mana issue presented by running Chasm/Maze/Tabernacles.

[Aleksandr]

Ofcourse, if you want to be 100% sure, your best option is to aks a judge. But still, both NesretepNoj and chokin are completely misreading the oracle text and FieryBalrog illustrates this perfectly. If the Mox is countered you do not need to discard a land.
I'm positive.

Yeah, exactly.

[Domel]

I don't run them since as long those are not in graveyard they're another colorles mana producer. I get your point with Portals but right now I'm quite happy with the build running 2 Chasm's main and 1 SB.
I will try to organize some playtesting during next couple of days and post down the results + some thoughts.

[Media314r8]

Does anyone know this deck well enough to re-write/update the primer? I think mox diamond has been adopted, and it seems that there is a consensus that the deck needs either 2x tabernacle or some number of devastating dreams to keep creature swarms at bay. I'm considering building this deck, and would probably opt for the 2x tabernacle package, but this thread is scattered with lists without even a shared consensus about the number duals/fetches, much less the standard/metagame'd utility lands. I feel the core of the deck cannot change much:

4x manabond
4x exploration
4x (3x if burning wish) life from the loam
2-4x gamble

4x mishra's factory
4x maze of ith
4x wasteland
1-2x tabernacle

but the 'flex' utility lands are throwing me for a loop, and I don't really care to devote 10+ hours on each of the hundreds of thousands of permutations of utility lands to decide if I want to run 1x or 2x barb ring, 1x or no keldon megaliths, ect. I've browed the lands decks on deckcheck, and there is even a large discrepancy between the legacy champs deck and the last SCG $5k lists, both major tournaments where lands top8'd. (both lists did run 3x intuition, 2x tabernacle, and 4x mox diamond)

[Schembo]

Dunno if this help anthing but her's list that take me to 3th in local legacy tourney about 1,5 month ago.

3 Burning Wish
3 Gamble
3 Life from the Loam
1 Worm Harvest

4 Exploration
4 Manabond

2 Barbarian Ring
1 Forest
2 Forgotten Cave
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Rishadan Port
3 Savannah
4 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

SB

3 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray of Revelation
1 Life from the loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Gamble
1 Firespout
1 Hull Breach
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Reverent Silence
2 Zuran Orb

Got 3th place with 3 wins and 2 draw. I won against tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, Landstill and R/B/g goblins. draw with another landstill (exactly same list that i won, they were team mates) and with merfolks.

Worm harvest and clacial chasm were mvp in both merfolk and goblins match up.

[Domel]

@ Media314r8 - I guess intuition is better than wish for several reasons:

1- it is an instant which is quite important against control decks
2- although it is one mana more expensive it's CC gives us resistance against Spell Snare and CB
3- You usually play burning Wish for LftL so you spen 2 mana for 1 card. Intuition lets you spend 3 mana for 3 cards (one of them is usually LftL), so it is also a land tutor.
4- Burning wish doesn't allow you to search for Manabond or Exploration.

Sure, playing intuition cuts you from options hiding in SB but deck becomes a lot more consistent with Intuition. The biggest problem running Inu is adding additional colour but I think it is worth it. This is one of the reasons to run Mox Diamonds (besides other I posted earlier).

I run 3 Fetch Lands and this number work good for me. I don't want get my first land sitifled and I really don't want to loose much life due to fetches.

Megaliths are just too slow and you cannot use them several times in one turn.

Glacial chasms are a must - they say Ichorid bye bye and can actually win against belcher + they help with almost every deck (exceptions are High tide, Nauseum and Painter). This is one of the reasons I run only one Tabernacle (can always find it with intuition).

[kinda]

Out of curiousity did anyone make a list that added the valakult/scapeshift combo? It avoids graveyard hate and somewhat helps the combo matchup because i added trinisphere. Yes it has dissynergy with loam/exploration but exploration is played first if you get it in your opening hand (or with sufficient lands if you get it later), and the one extra mana inconveniance in regards to loam in very small in comparison to the amount of time it can buy you against combo/burn/thresh/zoo...etc...
On that note...are there any decent anti tendrils or dredge strategies, or do you just punt the matchup?

Possible List:

4 Burning Wish
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
4 Trinisphere
2 Scapeshift
1 Worm Harvest

4 Treetop Village
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Taiga
4 Stomping Grounds
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Maze of Ith
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Mountain
2 Brushland
1 Valakult the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Firespout
1 Shattering Spree
1 Gamble
1 Scapeshift
1 Demonfire
1 Living Wish
1 Boseiju

[Thomas1991]

leander? is right about the mox diamond i'm positive.

I'm playing this deckfor a long time now. made it 2 time top 8 in the last couple of months. (40 to 70 people tournaments).

I think we have to stop wasting time on the combo matchup, we are a boardcontrol deck without countermagic and without a posibility to race combo.

we should concentrate more on back to basics and blood moon.

4#Manabond
4#Exploration
3#Life from the Loam
4#Burning Wish
4#Gamble
2#seismic assault
2#devastating dreams
4#Taiga
4#Wooded Foothills
3#stomping ground
4#forgotten cave
1#The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4#Wasteland
4#valakut, the molten pinacle
8#Mountain
4#Maze of Ith
1#barbarian ring

// sideboard
1#Devastating Dreams
4#volcanic fallout
1#Life from the Loam
1#Reverent Silence
2#Krosan Grip
1#life from the loam
1#scapeshift
4#chalice of the void

as you can see; more basics and 2 kills that kill's the opponent without tapping your lands or attacking. (and a urza's factory in the test slot)

valakut kills with an active back to basics, seismic assault kills with an active back to basics en blood moon.


with 11 possible loams seismic assault is perfect for this deck, it's a kill and removal and with this manabase we can support it.

as you can see i dropped 6 lands (including rishadan port)
and play devastating dreams, why?

how much i like rishadan port it's a short turn solution and because we dont kill with creatures anymore we can afford to play less lands and more good stuff.

i mean i loved mishra's factory but i hated treetop village. the only reason you play treetop village above another man land is because treetop does one thing that other man lands can't Tap:G (dryad arbor not included because he sucs.)

if anyone has a good idea just name it.