[Deck] Zoo

[FieryBalrog]

Canonist is better than Teeg against Storm; They can do everything in their deck except cast their wincons with Teeg around, which makes it easy to find Chain of Vapor or whatnot, while Canonist hampers their ability to do anything for a while.

[Nelis]

Canonist is better than Teeg against Storm; They can do everything in their deck except cast their wincons with Teeg around, which makes it easy to find Chain of Vapor or whatnot, while Canonist hampers their ability to do anything for a while.

At worst it takes them an extra turn. Which of course sometimes is all that it takes.

But unless you're willing to sacrifice extra slots in SB for both Canonist and Teeg I don't see why you would want to weaken your other bad match-ups (Stax, Dredge) even more only to improve your other bad match up just a little bit by running Canonist instead.

[jandax]

Plus, Cannonist is easier to cast than Teeg. Just another pro.

[Nelis]

Casting cost isn't an issue. With a proper manabase you can cast Teeg just as easy as Canonist. When fighting Combo you want to (almost always) put down Teeg turn 2 otherwise it's too late anyway. You can fetch accordingly. If you can't you should have taken a mulligan.

[FieryBalrog]

At worst it takes them an extra turn. Which of course sometimes is all that it takes.

But unless you're willing to sacrifice extra slots in SB for both Canonist and Teeg I don't see why you would want to weaken your other bad match-ups (Stax, Dredge) even more only to improve your other bad match up just a little bit by running Canonist instead.

Yea, that makes sense. Although since Pridemage came, I find Stax is closer to 50-50.

I was wondering how Teeg really helped against Dredge only shutting off Dread Return until I realized Breakthrough doesn't work either.

[Nelis]

Yea, that makes sense. Although since Pridemage came, I find Stax is closer to 50-50.

I was wondering how Teeg really helped against Dredge only shutting off Dread Return until I realized Breakthrough doesn't work either.

Yeah, I agree. Pridemage is a winner. I am more and more convinced that it's not smart to take up a deck which depends on artifacts/enchantments to win/stall. Since not only Zoo but also Rock and countertop (and basically any deck that runs white and green) play Pridemage.

I don't even fear Chalice on 1 anymore with Zoo. Sure it's annoying but with Pridemage, Goyf and Library it's hardly a problem pre-side boarding let alone post-sideboarding. And most of the time you've already put down an Ape or Nacatl before chalice hits anyway.

[memnarch]

Teeg has also been great to me as a sideboard. And yes casting isn't usually harder. I do suggest running basics of course.

[Tacosnape]

Just curious to hear from the more experienced players, what's the real pro of running the basics? I haven't found that anyone's really had time to be throwing Wastelands at me, and when I ran the basics I had to mulligan a few hands that were playable otherwise. And I find I need double red in a turn too often to fetch the three basics which can cast my entire deck.

My biggest argument against running the basics is that I found that every time I have three land where two are duals and one's a basic, a Wasteland can shut me off of a color unless the two duals are the same.

[TotallySweet]

The basics have indeed been useful for me vs waste, but only to a point as you mention. Also, I haven't had a problem with needing to mulligan due to color screw (perhaps I'm lucky), and I even run more basics than normal I think (1 forest, 1 plains, 2 mountain).

Some other times I've found them very useful:
When I run price of progress.
When my opponent runs price of progress.
When my opponent runs Path.
When I play against Moon effects.
Stupid rare plays that shouldn't even be considered really (like pathing my own creature after a block to grab a second mountain for fireblast to win).

That being said basics aren't really that amazing versus for instance Thresh. Stifle on a fetch is way better for the thresh player than wasting one of my lands. Vs stax basics aren't so amazing either. Yes, they can stop a wastelock, but it seems like a cup of water in a lake with smokestack and geddon.

[Nelis]

I run 1 forest, 1 mountain, 1 plains for the same reasons TotallySweet mentioned.

I have found them useful against aggro loam as well. Usually fetching non-basics first until Devastating Dreams hits, then search for basics to avoid a Loam/Waste lock.

I can't remember having had many mulligan problems with the basics. But I have to admit I haven't really kept score. I'll paybattention to that in the future. I do not run Fireblast though, so that has never been an issue anyway.

I usually fetch Taiga 1st, Plateau 2nd, then basics. Only when I know my opponent plays wastes I search for basics because I don't like taking my chances at getting manascrewed. I rather be a turn slower than to risk losing my lands.

Vs stax basics aren't so amazing either. Yes, they can stop a wastelock, but it seems like a cup of water in a lake with smokestack and geddon.

I think they are, you want to be sure you can cast Gaddock Teeg or Qasali Pridemage without the risk of losing your lands to wasteland beforehand. Because we run a low number of lands in my opinion we cant risk losing them. That's my priority when facing Stax, anyway.

[memnarch]

@Tacosnape: You can even run basics in your sideboard along with Teeg etc. things you need for certain match ups to make sure you can drop your silver bullet. I find recurring wastelands a problem in loam and stax type of decks.

[TotallySweet]

I think they are, you want to be sure you can cast Gaddock Teeg or Qasali Pridemage without the risk of losing your lands to wasteland beforehand. Because we run a low number of lands in my opinion we cant risk losing them. That's my priority when facing Stax, anyway.

I just came off a debate with someone who was claiming that basics > stax, so perhaps I didn't emphasize enough how basics help. They certainly do.

[Nelis]

@Tacosnape: You can even run basics in your sideboard along with Teeg etc. things you need for certain match ups to make sure you can drop your silver bullet. I find recurring wastelands a problem in loam and stax type of decks.

That takes up too many valuable spots in your sideboard if you ask me. But I think we all agree that we need the basics.

I just came off a debate with someone who was claiming that basics > stax, so perhaps I didn't emphasize enough how basics help. They certainly do.

Ok.

BTW, I found out that countertop is a bit of a hard match-up as well. What do you guys have in your sideboard for that match-up?

[jazzykat]

BTW, I found out that countertop is a bit of a hard match-up as well. What do you guys have in your sideboard for that match-up?

That's funny because I usually throw my hands up in frustration vs. zoo when playing counter/top. They have exactly 1 way to keep us out of the game and that is counterbalance+top. Everything else they do is often too slow and your burn finishes them off.

The more I play zoo the more I'm certain that it is part of the old triangle representing aggro. Counter/top is control and AdN is combo. I feel your best bet is to play one of these decks or the most brilliant haterators for the GP in Madrid.

[Nelis]

That's funny because I usually throw my hands up in frustration vs. zoo when playing counter/top. They have exactly 1 way to keep us out of the game and that is counterbalance+top. Everything else they do is often too slow and your burn finishes them off.

Hmm, this was actually Bant I was playing, maybe that's the difference?

I hope I'll make Madrid but unfortunately it's not set yet.

[FieryBalrog]

Bant is a lot better because of Rhox War Monk.

I found Countertop to be a pretty even matchup. It's not lopsided in Zoo's favor IMO.

[Anusien]

Just curious to hear from the more experienced players, what's the real pro of running the basics? I haven't found that anyone's really had time to be throwing Wastelands at me, and when I ran the basics I had to mulligan a few hands that were playable otherwise. And I find I need double red in a turn too often to fetch the three basics which can cast my entire deck.

My biggest argument against running the basics is that I found that every time I have three land where two are duals and one's a basic, a Wasteland can shut me off of a color unless the two duals are the same.

The basics seem nice against Landstill if they clear the board and threaten to Wastelock you. It's unlikely that you can win in that situation anyway.

Mostly they're nice to have against Blood Moon type effects and opposing Path to Exile. I think you want 1-2 but 3 was too many in testing. I'd suggest losing the Forest.

[GUnit]

Basics can be pretty clutch against tempo-based strategies, because they keep your kittens and apes big in the face of wasteland and friends.

[Soldar]

So I did some more testing with Figure of Destiny, and some testing with Vines of the Vastwood.

Figure:
I don't like him in here, not with the number of 2 drops that are in most stock lists. Every time when he was in my opening hand I was wishing he was Kird Ape again. There weren't enough opportunities for me to want to play around Daze and Spell Snare, where I would then be playing into Engineered Explosives (additional 1 drop, usually Lavamancer).

Some of the times he became a 4/4, but he still wasn't the biggest creature on the table (Goyf). Knight helped him out in becoming the 8/8 monstrosity the one time, but then my opponent Stifled it.

Vines:
I don't think this is maindeckable, but I really like it if you're playing the combo-hatebears (Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist). I was maindecking two for a small local tournament. Teeg felt pretty good in my Landstill matchup, and I felt even better when I had Vines as a backup.

[Illissius]

An interesting list is this.