Some time ago people used to run pyrokinesis main, I believe, in aggro infested metas. If that's your case, go for it. Just remember: against almost everything that isn't Tribal or Zoo it's pure card disadvantage: Can't kill a stalker, a 'nought, a goose with it. It can kill goyfs, but that's a 2:1. About Caller of the Claw: seems interesting, although Boartusk Lieges can handle the most used board sweepers (Pyroclasm, Volcanic Fallout, Firespout) without the need of leaving mana open on their turn and it also happens to solve Engineered Plague, something that Caller of the Claw doesn't help in any way. Caller of the Claw is clearly superior against Wrath of God, so if you expect to face some Landstill decks it's a nice option.
I tested Caller of the Claw a longass time ago, but not very extensively, because it was horrible.
MD Kinesis is not worth the gamble. If you want to metagame against aggro that extensively you might as well play tendrils or something.
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
So I've been working on a mono red list and I would like some critique on it.
// Lands
14 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Mogg War Marshal
2 Skirk Prospector
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Gempalm Incinerator
// Spells
4 AEther Vial
// Sideboard
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Goblin Chieftain
3 Stingscourger
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 shattering spree
1 tormods crypt
1 relic of progenitus
I would cut the skirk prospectors all together. Unless you're trying to have some sort of cute insta-win combo with kiki-jiki, skirk, and lightning crafter, he seems like he's just a way to exile bridges and a rite-of flame/proactive 'solution' for daze. Add the last two chieftains to the main if you're looking for more explosive power.
This isn't 2003, MD sharpshooters are not needed, and feel like 'danger of cool things' with the prospectors and the war marshals. For every time that you manage to use war marshal as a bolt and a rite of flame to chain into more marshals and ringleaders with a sharpshooter in play, there will be 20 times where sharpshooter feels like the worst three mana you've ever spent.
You should run at least two siege-gangs as he still wins games by himself.
Cut the fetches, all of them. There is no reason to run them in a mono deck without something like nocturnus (T2) or tombstalker (MBA) to abuse it. It changes your life total by 1/20 your initial value, and thins your deck by improving the odds ~2% of drawing a non-land, which does come up until turn 13 or something absurd on average. Not worth the vulnerability to stifle or life lost against zoo/red decks. If you don;t believe me, I'm sure an the search function or an adept can point you towards the saint who ran the odds at some point in this thread.
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
15 Mountain
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Stingscourger
3 Gemplam Incinerator
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg Fanatic
SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pithing Needle
This is a list I intend to play this weekend. I expect to see zoo, bant survival, ichorid in numbers. Any thoughts on the maindeck or board to assist in these matchups? Im comfortable with my playing ability of the deck, but I unfortunately do not have tons of free time to playtest against these decks. I know what I need to win the matchups, just wondering if there were any better board options or plans of attack that have worked for others that have played more extensively against them
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
In my experience relic doesn't do much against ichorid and I find it underwhelming against the other matchups you expect I would go crypt. Also I found REB could be something better, when i boarded them in they didn't really do much for me..with 3 SGC I would try and get another mountain in there, I personally like 23. and I like to get the third piledriver in there as well. I like the 2 main deck fanatics I'm been thinking about it myself because of all the ichorid I see.
what about the B-Splash for Weirdings and Planar Void SB
I would cut 1 stingscourger and some incinerators to run 3-4 lightning bolts. I know it's not a goblin, but against zoo and ichorid is great.
true, but I can fetch a stingcourger to bounce back a goyf or a rhox war monk, bolt isnt likely to kill goyf on its own. I had run bolt in the board to run against zoo, but kinesis and some proper mana disruption can handle that match, its all about being the control deck in that matchup. Against ichorid the 2 fanatics, relic, pyrokinesis, and needle should be enough to get me there. Stingscourger is good in this matchup too of course. Incinerator is really good, even moreso since I am running a few more 1 drops than some other lists(fanatic). I would run a fourth, but the 3/3 split of scourger/incinerator has been playing pretty solid for me. REB in the board is to handle war monk and any other pesky blue cards that may get in my way. Other than crypt being able to be used on turn 1 I cant say its strictly better than relic for what I intend it to do.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
Hi All,
The Goblins thread is bloated beyond belief. The mods/admins are reviewing which threads need a re-boot and Gobs is one of the ones we've identified.
Does anyone have an interest in writing a new OP for Goblins? It needn't be long, but should cover the basic shell, common cards, debateable cards, proven lists, maybe a quickie match-up guide. Doesn't need to be any longer than 1000 words, though it can be as long as you'd like.
If you're interested, please PM me and tell me why you're the best person for the gig.
- Staff
I vote for FoulQ to take care of it. He always has very solid advice and explains all his choices well with good backup.
I would agree with this to some extent. I preferred to split them up, going with something like 3 crypts and 2 relics.
Is Pyrokinesis good enough for zoo? It probably will not kill a goyf without help, effectively 3-for-1-ing yourself. Even against the fat, it seems underwhelming. I guess ideally you would hit one fatass and take out a Lavamancer as well. I used to run them and I know they can be great, but are the still? Or are we not getting enough bang for the buck?
Another idea I have been toying around with if people start playing Ichorid in numbers again is to maindeck two Fanatics and sideboard the other two along with four relics/crypts. Just an idea.
As far as lands go, 23 seems like too much for me and 22 seems like not enough. Nothing is worse then topdecking lands when you need some action -- other than not having enough lands to cast your matron/ringleader. I chose to go with 23.
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
15 Mountain
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Stingscourger
3 Gemplam Incinerator
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg Fanatic
SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pithing Needle
So I did play this list yesterday. My day went like this:
r1:Zoo win 2-1 (game 3 went to turns and I was still at 20 when the game ended)
r2: Ichorid win 2-1(g3 I topdeck Relic like a champ when I absolutely need it to save my ass after wastelanding his 2 lands, reb'ing a moeba, leaving him at no lands and 1 zombie token on board and me with 3 goblins)
r3:Brassman Counterbalance-0-2. Brassman is good, i almost had him game 1 until he trinket mages for needle on my 2x vial which was keeping me in the game
r4:bant survival(teammate)- 2-1. We have to play it out so game 1 he ends up topdecking loyal retainers after thinking he was out of the game. Game 2 I see triple relic and keep war monk off the board with pyrokinesis and get there. game 3 is really tight with me doing some nasty things my last turn to Mike, with 2x chieftain on board, stingscourger, schenannigans
r5: survival- 0-2: he gets way ahead like Joe B does, he drops goyfs like its his job, even after boarding he still gets way ahead game 2 with 2 loxodon hierach.
r6: teammate: no way we can get in, we draw and hang for a bit then head home..
the only card I never boarded in at all was the 4th chieftain. That may become a tormod's or something something.... All in all the deck felt good, wasnt really anything I could have done differently in the games I lost, although I hit some pretty lame ringleader flips all day
Oh, and fanatic, wins games. No joke
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
It sounds like Pyrokinesis was key for you in at least one game. How did it perform for you? Is it still good enough against bigger creatures?
well I pointed out the nailing of war monk since that little bastard really sucks if he stays in play. But pyro also wiped out multiple creatures against zoo (knight of the reliquary, goyf, pridemage) so it indeed does its job. Being free makes it amazing clearing the way for early lackey/instigator
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
Regarding Ports being less usefull now and with the addition of Warren Instigator, do you think its worth it to play a single Pendelhaven? It seems rather good to pump your Warren Instigators with it.. It also pumps Lackey's, Matron's and to a lesser extent Fanatic's, Mogg War Marshall's and Sharpshooter's.. It doesn't work with a Goblin Chieftain though does it? - but it can pump before he enters play. It can also work under a Plague or whatever - making a 2/2 a 2/3..
Another card getting better is Goblin Burrows - It obviously has some good synergies with Warren Instigator and also Goblin Chieftain, since it makes it easier to trade with Goyfs, when you suddenly have 4/x or 5/x goblins.. The more I think of it, this card is likely going to be more usefull than 2 Ports, with all the Goyfs running around...
Man even Teetering Peeks makes sense since it makes red - or send a Lackey, Instigator or Piledriver over flying with a Soaring Seacliff?
To. Many. Good. Options. Regarding. Nonbasic lands. Brain. Hurts!
@ lilelassie, I think you are misunderstanding the role that waste/port plays in this deck.
It gives the deck an entirely new dimension that other aggro decks do not possess. Zoo does not have waste/port + vial. Merfolk has stifle instead of port, and it is one of the lasting hallmarks of the deck.
Putting in lands like goblin burrows and pendelhaven are not going to help you win very much, and only look cool in a vaccuum. Getting a 1/1 to be a 2/3 will do very little for what goblins needs to do to win. However, waste/porting can definitely get you wins.
I've said it once but I think it is very important. Goblins cannot focus too much on the combat zone. Other decks with stronger, less synergistic cards will outclass this deck everytime. We need to focus on our superior synergy and the fact that we are an early pressure deck with a strong card advantage engine in the late game. This forces our opponent into role confusion and makes it so they both have to deal with early pressure and not let us get to our late game engine, a burdening task for how most legacy decks are designed as "aggro-control" decks.
In testing, sometimes with 4 Instigator/Chieftain, I honestly don't find the 2 more damage to be that marvelous. It comes up, but getting a 2/2 doublestriker active on turn 3 that requires two cards isn't nearly as exciting as getting a 3/3 (nacatl) active on turn 1/2.
Looking at stuff like tarmogoyf in a vaccuum I believe to be very flawed reasoning. The deck has many reliable answers to goyf, and yet it still struggles with him sometimes. It isn't because tarmogoyf is a 4/5 for 1G, it is because the supporting shell around him is able to deal with our early pressure and stop our late game bombs from happening. Tarmogoyf is but one piece of this puzzle. What rishadan port does is help us resolve our bombs and stop their bombs that stop our own from occurring. Legacy is a very bomby format, and port/waste help address this. Goblin Burrows and Pendelhaven do not accomplish this at all. It doesn't address any of the problems we are actually having. Sure, it makes it easier to trade with goyf, but we have had 5/2 piledrivers and even warren weirding now for multiple years. It is clear that trading or even removing goyfs is not the core fundamental problem this deck has with goyf-based decks.
The combat zone is not where this deck's strength lies. It never has. Lackey is a 1/1 for R. Warchief is a 2/2 for 1RR. Matron, 1/1 for 2R, and so forth. Those are miserable p/t for the mana cost.
I'll make a weird and terrible analogy. If we are on a ship, and their is a large crack in the hull where water is flowing into, goblin burrows and pendelhaven are like tiny corks trying to fix the problem. Instead of trying to stop the flooding, we should learn how to breathe the water that is coming into our ship. Rishadan Port is like scuba gear.
Also, I really doubt peaks/seacliff would be any good at all, as CITP has always been absolutely killer. Unless the card had an absolutely balls-busting effect, I don't think any CITP land will ever work for this deck, as "curving out" is the second most scary thing you can say in a tournament report besides "after my lackey connected" (that's from something but I don't know what).
And Pendelhaven will not stop plague.
Also ports are less useful in today's metagame because chieftain + warchief + instigator makes getting to RR very important, and port produces colorless. Also, because it isn't as strong against aggro decks, which have been popular lately. All of the lands you suggested produce colorless or non-red mana as well, except teetering peaks, but as discussed, CITP is just way too crippling.
haha awesome analogy, and good point.
FoulQ: What you argue makes sense I guess.. Though there are some counterintuitive things or at least some contradictions I would like to point out. It is on a bit more theoritical level, and about trying to understand the Legazy format as of today.
1) Saying goblins dont really care about the combat zone may very well be true - and so may your argument about Port stopping bombs or locking decks down in combination with Wasteland. If this Goblin philosophy holds true isn't it actually terrible and counterintuitive not to run 4 Rishadan Ports? and then simply cut the seemlingly unnecessary Goblin Chieftains and to a lesser extent Instigators? I'm wondering why Merfolk plays Mutavault over Port? Is it simply cause they are forced to play Standstill to gain card advantage?
2) After saying the above things about the importance of Port you go on to negligate its importance next. Since the printing of Tarmogoyf and the general lets-make-creatures-bigger-crack-that-Wizards-smokes, one could argue that the combat zone was simply not important in the old days, but in todays more aggresive and creature oriented format, we are simply forced to acknowledge the combat zone and act accordingly? Simply put: goblins didn't need to be good in combat before - now they are more or less forced to it. You said that Ports are becoming weaker cause of all the agrro. I'm not saying that Goblin Burrows is better in an agroformat. But in theory isn't it better than Port in the combat zone, which every format (except Vintage) resolve around these days?
I'm not entirely sure what I try to say with all this. Just some general thoughts. Do you guys think the format change forces goblins to compete in the combat zone? and FoulQ perhaps clarify for me the contradiction of saying Port is good, combat zone is bad, and then sacrificing Ports to play lords. And then later in your post saying Port is in fact not that good in todays format :)
FoulQ's point about not winning in combat is we are not going to make our little dudes big enough to kill Tarmogoyfs. That's not how we deal with them. We deal with them by bouncing them with Stingscourger, cycling Gempalm Incinerator, Pyrokinesis, or just having more goblins than they have blockers.
Warren Instigator is good because he lets us cheat mana and play more goblins for free, and assuming you have a lord out, can actually threaten to kill a goyf. The problem isn't the goyf, it's the pyroclasm. Port and Wasteland help keep them off the red mana to play it, or slow them down enough that we can get to our ridiculous card advantage engine of Goblin Ringleader/Matron/Warchief.
Goblins doesn't win like a traditional aggro deck. Goblins wins by doing something almost impossible in red - out card-advantaging the opponent. Sure it's possible to pull out a turn 3 win with the nut draw, but that's not the point of the deck.
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