[DTB] Vial Goblins

[FoulQ]

1) Saying goblins dont really care about the combat zone may very well be true - and so may your argument about Port stopping bombs or locking decks down in combination with Wasteland. If this Goblin philosophy holds true isn't it actually terrible and counterintuitive not to run 4 Rishadan Ports? and then simply cut the seemlingly unnecessary Goblin Chieftains and to a lesser extent Instigators? I'm wondering why Merfolk plays Mutavault over Port? Is it simply cause they are forced to play Standstill to gain card advantage?

It does pain me not to run 4 rishadan ports. I have loved them for a very long time. It is one of my favorite cards in the entire game. However, instigator and chieftain in some combination have proven to be very important in this deck (chieftain mainly for additional haste effects, but the +1/+1 can be handy sometimes). This is because of the RR cost in the card, and because instigator is significantly worse if he can't be cast on turn two. Which is why I think 16 red sources is not optimal, 17 is pushing it, and 18 is probably the best for amount of red sources - IN builds running these two cards (which many seem to advocate here).

I'm not very knowledgeable about merfolk. But I know they can't go first turn lackey, second turn port like goblins. Their pressure becomes insurmountable more in the mid game rather than early and late. Plus, many lists have stifle to complement wasteland. About mutavault, I think it may be marginally playable in goblins. I have tested it and it is not terrible. However, in merfolk, it is obviously a beast, especially with standstill.

2) After saying the above things about the importance of Port you go on to negligate its importance next. Since the printing of Tarmogoyf and the general lets-make-creatures-bigger-crack-that-Wizards-smokes, one could argue that the combat zone was simply not important in the old days, but in todays more aggresive and creature oriented format, we are simply forced to acknowledge the combat zone and act accordingly? Simply put: goblins didn't need to be good in combat before - now they are more or less forced to it. You said that Ports are becoming weaker cause of all the agrro. I'm not saying that Goblin Burrows is better in an agroformat. But in theory isn't it better than Port in the combat zone, which every format (except Vintage) resolve around these days?

I don't think they are forced to be good in combat today. They can still focus on creatures, but not the combat zone, like Artos pointed out in the post above me.

I'm not entirely dismissing goblin burrows. I think you should test it, specifically against merfolk, zoo, and the mirror. Unfortunately I'm dealing with finals and haven't had much time for goblins this past week. My manabase is 17 mountain, 4 waste, 2 port, with port acting as waste 5-6 basically. It's a very tough analysis to say whether we should run port or not, and that's why I'm not nailing it down as "yes you should to stop bombs" or "no you should not because of an aggro metagame," because it is very much based not only on the local metagame but personal playstyle as well.

I believe that what we need to focus on against most (most) of the aggro decks in the format is our inevitability in the matchup, thanks to ringleader + matron. This is partly why I advocate for a 3rd siege-gang commander (increase our density of late game bombs and therefore our inevitability against this aggro metagame) and 23 lands (ensure that we get the chance to cast our higher-end spells, which is very important in the aggro mirror when they are casting consistent little dudes and we cast ringleaders).

I'm not entirely sure what I try to say with all this. Just some general thoughts. Do you guys think the format change forces goblins to compete in the combat zone? and FoulQ perhaps clarify for me the contradiction of saying Port is good, combat zone is bad, and then sacrificing Ports to play lords. And then later in your post saying Port is in fact not that good in todays format :)

I think recent changes makes ringleader + matron even more important. Now that we have inevitability against so many matchups in the format, unlike what it was like in the past with landstill/survival/countertop etc, we have to adjust our playstyle against these decks more than anything. I think port is a metagame decision in today's format, not necessarily good or bad, I don't like to classify cards as so black or white. It really depends on your instigator/chieftain count, how important you feel it is to consistently be able to cast your instigator/chieftains (basically are they extremely essential to resolve early with your playstyle), and of course your metagame. And the reason for chieftain is because haste effects in goblins are ridiculously powerful no matter which way you look at it.

[arebennian]

Of all of the lands mentioned, Soaring Seacliff seems like an interesting option. With 7-8 Lackey effects the ability to soar over blockers, which the opponent believes will block the offending goblin, seems interesting.

[FoulQ]

If lackey connections were what made this deck strong, there would be lists with 4 stingscourgers and 4 warren weirdings.

But I've almost never seen those two really in connection with each other. It is more of the threat of lackies and your opponent forced to answer them than anything else.

I would have to test it to say with real confidence, but I mean cmon, when has a CITP land been good for a legacy aggro deck? Or practically any legacy deck?

[Media314r8]

If lackey connections were what made this deck strong, there would be lists with 4 stingscourgers and 4 warren weirdings.

But I've almost never seen those two really in connection with each other. It is more of the threat of lackies and your opponent forced to answer them than anything else.

I would have to test it to say with real confidence, but I mean cmon, when has a CITP land been good for a legacy aggro deck? Or practically any legacy deck?

While I agree that making lackey connect is not the primary way to win, and thus should not be overly-stressed, I think this idea may have some merit, at least in some mono-red builds running 4 lacky and 4 gators.

Think of seacliffs not as a EtB tapped land, but rather as a one mana, un-counter-able, cantripping jump that takes up a land slot and only taps for colorless (unless you run EE in the SB or something). Shadow rift saw play in 'tog, and a super-aggro mono red list with 4-ofs lackey, gator, and driver may have found a colorless land to play over port. I agree that the EtB tapped is a kick in the nuts, but uncounterable-jumping a driver in a dedicated aggro goblins list without having to cut goblin slots is appealing to my Timmy, and my Spike is at least interested. I will have to throw together a mono-red list with cliffs and test it on MWS in my free time over the next few days. Something like:

24 lands (not changing the number of red sources from most mono-red lists running 22 lands - 4 waste, 2 port)

16 mountain
4 wasteland
4 soaring seacliff (counting as half a land, as it is functionally a spell that happens to stick around to tap for colorless on following turns)

4 goblin lackey
4 warren instigator
4 goblin piledriver
2 stingscourger
2 mogg war marshal
4 goblin chieftain
2 golbin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 goblin ringleader
2 siege-gang commander

4 aether vial

[Justin]

While I agree that making lackey connect is not the primary way to win, and thus should not be overly-stressed, I think this idea may have some merit, at least in some mono-red builds running 4 lacky and 4 gators.

Think of seacliffs not as a EtB tapped land, but rather as a one mana, un-counter-able, cantripping jump that takes up a land slot and only taps for colorless (unless you run EE in the SB or something). Shadow rift saw play in 'tog, and a super-aggro mono red list with 4-ofs lackey, gator, and driver may have found a colorless land to play over port. I agree that the EtB tapped is a kick in the nuts, but uncounterable-jumping a driver in a dedicated aggro goblins list without having to cut goblin slots is appealing to my Timmy, and my Spike is at least interested. I will have to throw together a mono-red list with cliffs and test it on MWS in my free time over the next few days. Something like:

24 lands (not changing the number of red sources from most mono-red lists running 22 lands - 4 waste, 2 port)

16 mountain
4 wasteland
4 soaring seacliff (counting as half a land, as it is functionally a spell that happens to stick around to tap for colorless on following turns)

4 goblin lackey
4 warren instigator
4 goblin piledriver
2 stingscourger
2 mogg war marshal
4 goblin chieftain
2 golbin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 goblin ringleader
2 siege-gang commander

4 aether vial

This is the most interesting idea that I've seen for Goblins in a long time. You are essentially swaping out removal for evasion. The uncounterability of soaring seacliff makes it good against decks like thresh and countertop. Although it weakens your deck against other matchups (such as those with big creatures) and is worse at getting creatures off the board.

I do have a couple problems with your list. There is a strong consensus that four warchiefs are mandatory. War marshals are cool, but they don't have a place in today's goblins. Your deck already has enough two-drops anyway. I would cut chieftains before I cut warchiefs. You also have six ways to give a lackey/gator a path (2 stingscourgers and 4 cliffs). You might up this number a bit to 7 or 8 to improve your chances of connecting.

I'd recommend:
-2 Mogg War Marshal
-1 Goblin Piledriver
-1 Goblin Chieftain

+2 Goblin Warchief
+1 Stingscourger
+1 Gempalm Incinerator (it's nice to have this as a one-of that you can grab with a Matron when you need it)

I'm not sure if Soaring Seacliff improves the deck, but it certainly seems worth testing.

[Tacosnape]

The problem with Soaring Seacliff is that the most common time you'd want to drop it is on turn 2 to jump a Lackey. Goblins only runs 8 1-drops. Meaning unless you were fortunate enough to get 2 Lackeys or a Lackey/Vial in your opening hand, you lose your turn two play as a result. Meaning if you drop Seacliff and then your Lackey gets STP'd/Bolted/Whatever, you basically lost your 2-drop as a result.

Dropping it as your 3-drop on an Instigator isn't a whole lot better, as by three you want to be dropping Chiefs/Matrons.

[arebennian]

The problem with Soaring Seacliff is that the most common time you'd want to drop it is on turn 2 to jump a Lackey. Goblins only runs 8 1-drops. Meaning unless you were fortunate enough to get 2 Lackeys or a Lackey/Vial in your opening hand, you lose your turn two play as a result. Meaning if you drop Seacliff and then your Lackey gets STP'd/Bolted/Whatever, you basically lost your 2-drop as a result.

Dropping it as your 3-drop on an Instigator isn't a whole lot better, as by three you want to be dropping Chiefs/Matrons.

Wow.
Look at that.
I dropped Sea Cliffs and my Matron magically appeared on the Battlefield, and brought a SGC with it!

Gee I wish I could use all three of my mana this turn, guess I'll stick down that other decent 2 drop <cough> Piledriver <cough> in my hand.

Sorry to be a dick Taco, but the situation you note isn't as bad as you make it sound.
A playtest with 8 Lackey effects could lead to some interesting results.

[GUnit]

Soaring Seacliff seems awfully greedy to me. This deck's efficiency and consistency is what makes it a powerhouse. Diluting both of those qualities with cute tricks is dangerous, especially when the benefit typically won't be that impressive.

[arebennian]

Look. I'm not totally championing Cliffs, but I think it warrents testing.

[FoulQ]

I'm coming in defense of arebennian.

I just tested seacliffs for about two hours on MWS, and an hour earlier by myself, using the list suggested by Justin.

First turn lackey, second turn seacliffs was actually pretty nuts. The main reason for this is that your opponent never sees it coming, and it totally screws them over.

This is similar to how stingscourger used to be, when opponents never heard of the card, and it totally surprised them, and made lackey connections that much more awesome. Soaring seacliffs does a similar thing.

I think it warrants a little testing too.

Still, it comes down to what GUnit was saying, efficiency and consistency. So I'm still very much in the "no" camp. But don't dismiss it as a crappy zendikar common. I think it is borderline playable like a card like goblin goon, kiki-jiki, etc. At least from what I've seen so far.

The CITP was not as skullcrushing as you might assume, using Media's logic. It came up a couple times, but nothing major. It getting wastelanded and my mana development being stopped was actually more of a problem.

[Joe_C]

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftan
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Stingscourger
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Kiki-jiki Mirror Breaker

16 Mountain
4 Wasteland

SB: 3 Relic Of Progenitus
2 Red Elemental
1 Pyroblast
3 Summoning Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Blood Moon


This deck took 2nd at the tournament I was just at this past weekend. Jason(dont know his name here on the source) always seemed to be a few seats away from me so we had 2 goblins players cheering each other on during the day . Interesting not running instigator at ALL in favor of the full load of fanatics, this is something I had considered as well, but with some discussion with my team I decided to rock just 2 instigator since they can get in there savagely, and they did, just twice for me, I dont think they are needed to make the deck strong in the format though. Having more 1 drops makes incinerator a shitload better, and that card was indeed amazing for me all day along with pyrokinesis out of the board.

[lillelassie]

Nice to see someone actually bothering to test my crazy brainstorming. I would have thought the Goblin Burrows would be better than Seacliff.

The problem with Seacliff is those already listed + would a Port just be better? What I do when I test cards for my sideboard in standard (and in general I guess), I think about the cards I have in hand and then "What available card would I most like this to be". So when you test Soaring try to think every time you draw it "Would a Port be better or worse in this situation?", it should give you some idea of the playability of Seacliff vs. Port.
I honestly think 4 Ports just seems better.

4 Soaring Seacliff also seems like to many - think its better as a 2 or 3-off, since 2x Seacliff hands make for some akward situations..

Also had Goblin Shortcutter been tested? or is it pretty much just a worse Stingscourger?

I also dont think that Warren has been legal or played long enough to earn a locked spot in Goblins.. Its just really hard to test cards in a format with so many decks..

[Tacosnape]

Sorry to be a dick Taco, but the situation you note isn't as bad as you make it sound. A playtest with 8 Lackey effects could lead to some interesting results.

The point I'm making is that my scenario is going to be far more common than getting actual benefit off of the Lackey/Seacliffs combination. You're also going to open yourself up to further risk of not getting double red, which means not being able to play Warren Instigator, which is going to defeat the purpose.

I do like the idea of having Seacliff provide an alpha strike with a Piledriver, though.

[Media314r8]

The point I'm making is that my scenario is going to be far more common than getting actual benefit off of the Lackey/Seacliffs combination. You're also going to open yourself up to further risk of not getting double red, which means not being able to play Warren Instigator, which is going to defeat the purpose.

I ran a test list with 24 lands, and thus preserved the number of red sources in mono-red lists running 22 lands with 4 wastes, 2 ports. Having 24 lands means that you'll less often be dropping seacliffs as an actual mana source, and hitting your early land drops until you need to jump a driver. I've been hitting 3 EtB untapped lands reliably enough to not have problems curving out with chieftains and warchiefs, but stumbling before casting a turn four ringleader has been a little bit of a problem. I will probably try -2 X, +2 warchief to help relegate the ringleader on four problem. I suppose I'm just spoiled from RB and playing frogtossers on two and ringleaders on three.

I find it odd that because of warchief's CMC of three, even my super-aggro mono-red list is more mana hungry than my RB list with a higher curve and frogtossers. Perhaps people just don;t respect the black warchief effect enough to force/daze him.

I do like the idea of having Seacliff provide an alpha strike with a Piledriver, though.

This has happened to me so many times on MWS, I'm actually having a problem getting game 2 and 3s because of the amount of SPLs a flying 13/2 driver causes. Jumping gators has to be the hottest thing ever - even if this idea turns out to be terrible and to cute, everyone should experience 'soar'ing a gator over a puzzled tarmogoyf and dropping in a surprise goblin bomb.

EDIT: In testing, I also would like to suggest anyone ~not~ 'jump'ing on the cliffs crazy train, but playing 8 lacky effects in mono-red, that goblin shortcutter may be a better way to ensure lackies connect than running 3-4 stingscourgers. In my experience, the echo on scourger is rarely played in such decks, and the additional body for drivers may be better than occasionally bouncing a tombstalker or dreadnaught. I still think scourger deserves a place in toolboxes, but shortcutter is something to test while we're on the subject of connecting lackies.

[dearleader]

Stingscourger generates tempo at the 2cc slot, which is my favorite aspect of the card. It fits in so well with what the deck wants to do; either connect with a lackey, or get to the mid-late game where we can easily cast 3cc and 4cc goblins. The later is really important against faster aggro decks such as Zoo and Elves. I've even found it useful against ProBant where it can delay Natural Order by a turn.

I've been thinking about Shortcutter as well since I play a 8 lackey build, but if we're just looking at connecting with lackey, then they roughly have the same utility - namely, removing a blocker. Its then a question of whether you want the tempo/utility of Stingscourger compared to the 2/1 body of Shortcutter. I prefer the flexibility of stingscourger.

[Tacosnape]

Shortcutter is terrible outside of the Lackey circumstance. Stingscourger can get things off of you that the deck loses to otherwise. Marit Lage, Baneslayer Angel, even Reanimator's Iona if you managed to get a Vial down fast enough.

[Cyrus]

Is there any way to completely drop Wastelands in a meta full of basics? Going all-in balls to the wall aggro, maybe with some Burrows or Soaring Seacliffs; or maybe lowering the land count a bit. What's the best option?

[Draener]

Is there any way to completely drop Wastelands in a meta full of basics? Going all-in balls to the wall aggro, maybe with some Burrows or Soaring Seacliffs; or maybe lowering the land count a bit. What's the best option?

The real question is what decks full of basics are you losing to? Enchantress perhaps?

[Cyrus]

Random stuff, things like Elves, MonoB Suicide, Spring Tide, sometimes Enchantress. In that case, dropping the land disruption cards would be nice, but how to effectively use those slots?

EDIT: Apparently Simian Spirit Guide is awesome.

[shadowhunter483]

I edited a list I posted earlier.

// Lands
18 [9E] Mountain (3)
4 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [AT] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Stingscourger
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [10E] Goblin King
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre


I added in extra graveyard hate as I plan to play this in the LA 5K and since aggro loam won the previous 5K I'm anticipating life from the loam. The one of goblin king is for match ups where mountainwalk becomes useful. Against decks in which they clog up the ground with guys, you can drop it and win out of nowhere.