[Deck] Burn

[uanlayen]

yah i cant count apparently it should of been 12 mountains 4 taiga and 4 wooded foothills. The reason you run krosan grip is simply put its split second and cant be countered which imo is reason enough in itself to run the card and red ele blast doesnt cut it against countertop it gets force of willed or some other form of counterspell once they work out your playing a red deck there just going to wait for the artifact destruction honestly if your opponent is anygood you wont ever cast any of your red artifact destruction.

[Curby]

Then you're running the wrong artifact destruction. Shattering Spree's copies get past Counterbalance as well as Chalice. Unless they have a counterspell for every red mana you have, it's not going to work. EDIT: I love StS and it gets better as Countertop gets less popular, but it's still not something that you can count on. It's just awesome that it furthers your gameplan as you kill their artifact.

[FoulQ]

What? Shattering Spree does not kill counterbalance. It doesn't solve the counterbalance problem at all.

The only answers in mono red are blasts, shusher, and somewhat sulfuric vortex/diversifying your curve.

[Curby]

Shattering Spree's copies get past Counterbalance

Get past doesn't mean destroy, just as Serra Angel gets past Moat without actually destroying it. I agree that you'd need something besides artifact destruction to destroy an Enchantment, but I was responding to the claim that artifact destruction doesn't work against a good opponent.

[uanlayen]

ok i am not going to get into a stupid argument with you over grip vs shattering spree because there are other reasons to play grip other than just artifact hate ivory mask will shut you down permanantly and is sometimes played in enchanter also CoP red which is something you can expect to see alot of with zoo being so prominant atm.

[Curby]

Hmm, I've heard of decks packing Absolute Law to deal with Zoo, Sligh, and Burn, and Stax uses Sphere of Law, but I haven't seen CoP. I admit it would be a problem, I've just not come across it yet. If I started to see a lot of any of these enchantments, I'd likely go with Anarchy first.

In the end, I agree that Grip is the best Disenchant, but I'm not sure that I'm willing to weaken my manabase for it alone. Tell me, do you have more Stifles and Wastes in your meta, or do you have more Ivory Masks and CoPs? You may win on the back of a Grip, but you'll also lose due to the weakened manabase. That might be worth it in your meta, but it's not something I'll do.

[uanlayen]

stifle i havent seen much of recently tbh but i admit it would be an annoyance and wasteland /shrug also annoying but you can play round them easily you just need to drop your taiga the same time you wanna tap it for mana to grip i do agree 100% that its abit of a weaker build but tbh you would need the fetch lands to fix your mana curve and stop you from glutting so taking one more step to taiga isnt a massive deal is it? .................. ultimately its all the luck of the day what you draw against i have fairly lousy luck in my draws always seem to match against the few random decks that are my worse matchups last tourney i went to i took affinity managed to draw the only solidarity deck there and spent most of the rest of the day getting annoyed with pridemage lol.

[Curby]

Magma Jet fixes mana flood issues, not fetchlands. You need to read more magic theory if you don't believe me.

(Also, I'm not a mod, but you may be reminded by one to punctuate and capitalize properly.)

[Mikeleroi]

By the way... which is the "last best deck" for the archetype? I would like to play the deck on a tournament this week, and I have some gaps to fill...

//Core
19 Mountain
4 Lightning bolt
4 Chain lightning
4 Lava spike
4 Rift bolt
4 Price of progress
4 Magma jet
4 Fireblast
4 Keldon marauders
// 51

// Still 9 cards... I was thinking something like:
2 Flamebreak
3 Volcanic fallout
4 Needle drop
//

The core of the deck I think doesn´t need anything to say... for me, keldon marauders are the MVP, and consider PoP and Fireblast so good, I wouldn´t cut any to 3.

For the other 9... well, I don´t like any other creatures. Lavamancers and fanatics need "something" more to fit, and the sparks dont assure any damage.

So I wanted spells (instants if possible)... Some which could sweep the board and:
no browbeats (don´t want other player choosing)
no incinerate (3 for 2 it is not enough)
no flame rift (sorcery, and 4 for me... many times are too many)

In the end, I had some cards I liked: needle drop, final fortune, pulse of the forge, shard volley. Which would you take?

[snackfu]

Mogg Fanatic is often a 2-for-1 and provides insurance against Dredge.

Flamebreak has proven to be better for me in my metagame, despite its sorcery speed. That extra point of damage has proven itself time and time again against many decks.

Incinerate was kind of a necessary evil for me, though Needle Drop is a bit intriguing if not too conditional. At one point, I went balls to the wall and ran Street Wraiths to accelerate into more good burn.

[Otter]

Mogg Fanatic is often a 2-for-1 and provides insurance against Dredge.

Huh? M10 kinda killed the 2-for-1 thing with Fanatic.

[Curby]

Yeah I'm not sure what to say. Now that aggro's getting more popular, Flame Rift really has to go. Unfortunately, Needle Drop has shown itself to be way too conditional, being a dead topdeck, etc. I might go back to using Manamorphose, which now gets better because if you topdeck and cantrip into land as there's no mana burn. Manamorphose becomes mostly better than Street Wraith for us now. Also makes crazy splashing plans (see uanlayen above) more consistent. Manamorphose vs Needle Drop? Neither guarantees success, but Manamorphose only depends on land. If you're stuck on one land, that's game anyway.

If you want to keep business spells in that slot, Incinerate is probably the best way. Unless you would rather have 4-for-3s and use things like Flame Javelin, Flames of the Blood Hand, etc.

As Otter said, the Fanatic is no longer an option.

Re: Flamebreak vs Volcanic Fallout, it's totally a metagame call. If you see lots of Elves and Zoo, Flamebreak is what you need (many asses of 3 there). If you see Merfolk, you'll need Volcanic Fallout and the ability to cast it early. Against blue in general, Fallouts are awesome. In the same vein, you might use 2 Barbarian Rings to push the last points through their counter/control elements.

[snackfu]

I guess he was talking about Incinerate being a 3-for-2. I believe Fanatic often gets there enough by plinking away at people. If it gets blocked, go ahead and sac it. I understand we cannot put damage on the stack anymore, but I still think it typically hits at least once and does give some options vs. Dredge, which will ruin your day. I should have been more clear, I guess. I do think it typically is worth 2 damage for 1 mana. It is not a 2-for-1 in the traditional sense of killing creatures simply because most creatures now have MUCH bigger hind ends.

Or just punt it to Dredge, which certainly is an option. That deck kind of comes and goes, but it is nice to stomp it out when it shows its face.

[Iare]

Personally id drop 2 moutains for 2 barbarian rings then with the other 9 cards do something like

1 Barbarian ring - I'm of the belief that the right mana base for burn is 17 mountains and 3 barbarian rings.
4 Volcanic fallout<-- Good against ports and blue decks, its an instant meaning it can take out man lands, and its a better turn three than flamebreak if you go turn 2 Keldon.
4 Flame Javelin - Good against counterbalance and other slowish decks. Takes out goyf most the time. (Against this deck anyway)

[Curby]

That may work. The 20th land will be good with 8 maindeck 3-drops, something previously unimaginable. In fact, perhaps I'd use 3 of each and slot in 2 Shard Volleys, something that's been in my maindeck as a 2-of since its printing. Yes, you can afford to sac the extra 2 mountains every 3 or 4 games.

However, I'm still not convinced that Fallout is always better. Importantly, Apes, Nacatyls, pairs of Elf Lords, etc. are all Shock-proof. If I turn 2 Keldon I'll simply swing then sweep to avoid killing my dude early. In my experience most people will not want to trade their "good" creature with a "throwaway" creature, which is something that I'll happily capitalize on.

[Iare]

That may work. The 20th land will be good with 8 maindeck 3-drops, something previously unimaginable. In fact, perhaps I'd use 3 of each and slot in 2 Shard Volleys, something that's been in my maindeck as a 2-of since its printing. Yes, you can afford to sac the extra 2 mountains every 3 or 4 games.

However, I'm still not convinced that Fallout is always better. Importantly, Apes, Nacatyls, pairs of Elf Lords, etc. are all Shock-proof. If I turn 2 Keldon I'll simply swing then sweep to avoid killing my dude early. In my experience most people will not want to trade their "good" creature with a "throwaway" creature, which is something that I'll happily capitalize on.

Fallout isn't always better in fact this thread is full of arguments for flamebreak. Play what you think is best in your meta.

[Curby]

Yes, I know. See post #1232 above. It's just that others seem to advocate one exclusively, and I'm trying to bring balance to the force.

[NecroYawgmoth]

...why not just play 4 Hellspark Elementals in the slots of the Flame Javelin?

IMO they are better than Javelin / Incinerate

...something like:

16 Bolts
4 Fireblast
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
4 Flamebreak //// Fallout
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Hellspark Elemental
1 Sensei's Divining Top
17 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring


YawG

[Curby]

...why not just play 4 Hellspark Elementals in the slots of the Flame Javelin?

IMO they are better than Javelin / Incinerate

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but mine happens to disagree with it. Creatures are getting bigger and faster, and running across the field just isn't what it used to be. I would contend that Spark Elemental is better than Hellspark Elemental because you're paying half as much to do the same negligible amount, and in fact the lower cost is significant as you may actually connect while they play their Vials, Heirarchs, and Mothers of Runes. Unfortunately, both cards get worse as the game goes on because Legacy creatures are huge, so the ability to bring it back later might as well not even exist.

According to any logic that recommends Hellspark Elemental, Ball Lightning should be included first as the power of 6 is more likely to trample over Legacy creatures' big asses, and it ends up costing less for the same damage. Any arguments that such proponents have against Ball Lightning are also applicable to Hellspark Elemental. (Sure you need three mana at once, but expecting to consistently win with 2 land against a competent opponent is a stretch.)

[Koby]

A diversified build is the only way to go as to not lose to Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void. In that respect, you're looking to play only the best of each mana cost and essentially build a modified Sligh curve (15-16-6-4). In my builds, I totally reduce the importance of the 1cc slot in favor of 2cc and utility.

As others have mentioned, the metagame is shifting more towards creatures. In that regard, playing Lava Spike is abysmal as it does not help you maintain board leverage. Magma Jet offering card selection is nice, but it is really unimpressive in terms of damage.

Here's my list:

15 Mountain
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Barbarian Ring

1 CC
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightining
4 Rift Bolt (effectively)
3 Grim Lavamancers

2 CC
4 Incinerate
3 Price of Progress
2 Magma Jet
4 Keldon Marauders
3 Hellspark Elemental

3 CC
1 Flame Javelin
1 Volcanic Fallout
2 Flamebreak
2 Sulferic Vortex

4 Fireblast

The inclusion of Mishra's Factory helps to distract (read buys time, land drops in Wasteland, and confuse) the opponent. An otherwise mountain would achieve none of this, and is going to never deal damage outside of Fireblast. The factories also rarely impede Fireblast from being enabled either, so it's not as big of a deal.

Most of the time, getting multiple Factories is just fine, as you continue to take free pock-shots at your opponent until your draw smooths out.

But don't take my word for it, try them yourselves. This was the list I ran in a 25 person tournament to a top 4 finish.

EDIT: yes, it is 61 cards. 19 land is not enough, and I refuse to cut a piece of burn. It somehow works out.