[Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

[Volt]

I'd like to examine the mana question more closely. (Volt: is 15 as a bare minimum because of Wasteland, or even in a vacuum?)

Slivers has three colors, Merfolk has one or two. Their mana curves are broadly similar, though Merfolk has several 3 mana spells whereas Slivers does not. Merfolk has one, possibly two cards which require more than a single colored mana: LoA and Sovereign. Slivers has only one: Crystalline Sliver. There is not a card in the deck you can't cast with any two out of Tundra, Tropical Island, and Savannah.

Your proposed manabase will lead to a lot of dangerous or unkeepable opening hands. Two colorless lands is an auto-mulligan. Savannah + colorless land is terrible. Tropical Island + colorless land is slightly less terrible, but still terrible. You'll end up keeping a lot of hands with Tundra + colorless land, and praying that your opponent doesn't rout you with a single Wasteland. It is absolutely vital to our strategy to play Crystalline Sliver on turn 2 as often as possible. Merfolk can generally afford to be a little more patient with getting Lord of Atlantis into play, as it is often played as an enabler for a finishing strike (similar to Winged Sliver in Meathooks).

EDIT: Also, no Brainstorm? That's just crazy talk.

[Travy]

@Travy: PtE is not synergistic with Worb. We're not aggro enough to warrant the use of PtE anyway. Time and time again we've been shown that our critters barely stack up anymore: we have fewer lords and about the same evasion as Merfolk, fewer lords and explosiveness than Elves, and less raw power than Zoo. We're an aggro-control deck packing such things as Daze, which is also bad with PtE.

I agree that Wasteland doesn't belong. I'd use Mutavault first if I'm considering colorless land.

I found PtE to be very synergistic with Worb and honestly can't see how it wouldn't be considered as such. My better games found me dropping Vial turn 1, WOrb turn 2, then going to town off of that. PtE with WOrb out was incredibly saucey and the combination of PtE and StP wrecked the aggro decks I played. As for our lack of lords as compared to Merfolk we are on par. 8 muscle effects is pretty good + plated and crystalline.

[Mosesthecoot]

Hey, my first competitive deck was UWbg CounterSliver and I've seen it get improved with the addition of Mutavault and I've seen it get hosed with no more stack shenanigans. I know I'm a bit late but I've seen decks on workstation who swear by Spell Pierce INSTEAD of Daze maindeck. I see that a lot of current lists run them in the sideboard, most likely for combo and game-ending hurtful spells (NO), but has anyone tried running them maindeck with any success or failure?

My current list:

3x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
1x Plains
1x Island
4x Mutavault

4x Sinew Sliver
4x Muscle Sliver
4x Winged Sliver
4x Crystalline
3x Plated Sliver

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Spell Snare
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares

4x AEther Vial

sb:

2x Hydroblast
2x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Pithing Needle
4x Krosan Grip
4x Meddling Mage

[Curby]

I'd consider changing a Winged to be a Plated, as Wingeds don't stack but Plateds do. At first I thought you were recommending getting rid of Dazes entirely, which is a bad idea because we often want to stick a Vial on turn 1 or a Crystalline on turn 2, and the free Countermagic is essential for that. My concern now is that the lowered number of Cantrips means you won't have enough of a Cantrip/Fetch card quality engine to sculpt your hand. Have the Snares worked well for you?

[Mosesthecoot]

The snares definitely have worked well since it hits so much in legacy. Obviously once in awhile it will just get pitched to Force. I guess I could easily switch those out with Ponders if that's what you're getting at.

I feel Winged is quite important to our game plan and I always want to see it in any given game. I used to run 3 and NO Plated but I've grown to like the Tarm-blocking ability of a 3/5 sliver

To be clear, I didn't recommend getting rid of Daze but I ran into someone that did. I'm in fact all about Daze because if anything it keeps them guessing and mind games are always fun in Magic.

[KaraZorEl]

I came up with a few different ideas for this deck, and I thought I would post to get some feedback here. I'm thinking about going to the tournament in Columbus this year for Legacy. It seems like every time I turn around, I find something else that I want to put in. But, here's what I have so far:

Creatures (20):
Crystalline Sliver x3
Sinew Sliver x4
Muscle Sliver x4
Shifting Sliver x2
Winged Sliver x2
Sliver Legion x1
Talon Sliver x2
Gemhide Sliver x2
Linvala, Keeper of Silence x1

Artifacts (8):
Isochron Scepter x4
Aether Vial x4

Spells (12):
Unified Will x3
Counterspell x3
Orim's Chant x3
Brainstorm x4

Lands (20):
Ancient Ziggurat x2
Reflecting Pool x4
Vivid Creek x1
Vivid Grove x1
Vivid Marsh x1
Vivid Crag x1
Vivid Meadow x1
Plains x1
Swamp x1
Forest x1
Mountain x1
Island x1
Mutavault x4


Sideboard:
Tajuru Preserver x1
Eladamri's Call x4
Clot Sliver x2
Terminate x4
Frozen Aether x2
Platinum Angel x1
Heart Sliver x1

I just started playing within the last few months, and my problem so far is a lack of cards. I would prefer to run the multi-color lands that don't come in tapped, but I can't afford those, so my solution is to run reflecting pool and all 5 vivid lands. Once their charge counters are used up, there's still enough variety in there to make it run well, it just doesn't run as fast as I could wish.

I've constructed my sideboard to prepare for some of the newer ideas that will probably come about as a result of the Eldrazi set. If I find that I can't get the creature I want, I'll sideboard in Eladamri's Call, although that seems an unlikely event the way this deck is constructed. I thought about running Reliquary Tower and Distant Melody, but in order for Melody to be effective, I'd have to have a ton of creatures on the board, by which point I probably don't care whether I'm drawing cards or not.

Isochron Scepter might be the key to this deck. Imagine using a Brainstorm every turn...Orim's Chant works pretty well. I've played this deck through proxies and it's difficult to beat in a Legacy format. I like the combination of Gemhide Sliver and Heart Sliver- tap a Sliver for mana as soon as you play it.

At first, I was running Training Grounds and Sliver Overlord but I realized Overlord is unnecessary in this deck anyways. Those two cards are clutter more than anything else. While it is nice to tutor for 6 Slivers in one turn, it's probably not necessary. All you really need is to get Shifting Sliver on the board and you've won. At least, that's been my experience. :)

[Curby]

You might try posting this in the Casual forums, because IMHO it doesn't belong here. There are many ways to construct a sliver deck, and I'm not sure that there are any tournament-viable ways. When straying so far from the accepted build (as in the first post of this thread), you must provide reasons for your changes, and argue about the relative strength of the designs.

Sample complaints: Unified Will and Counterspell cannot hope to compete with Force of Will, the lack of the fourth Crystalline Sliver is very distressing, and the Scepter seems misplaced. Where are the Swords to Plowshares, a staple in almost any deck with white mana? In fact, I cannot see how any of the additions or changes you've proposed benefits the performance of the deck.

You say that it does well in the Legacy format, but I just cannot believe that. Have you tested against a seasoned Legacy player with a traditional Zoo deck? Its own army will likely outnumber yours, making half of your countermagic useless. Its mountain of removal will not only get rid of your Scepters and Vials but also your creatures.

I can appreciate the fact that you're just starting and do not have access to some of the rarer cards, but if you're designing with such constraints, you should post it as a casual deck in the appropriate place. Alternately, I'd look at building a high quality single-color deck if you're just starting out. This gets around the obvious problems of acquiring the mana base necessary to power a multicolor deck.

Good luck!

[KaraZorEl]

You might try posting this in the Casual forums, because IMHO it doesn't belong here. There are many ways to construct a sliver deck, and I'm not sure that there are any tournament-viable ways. When straying so far from the accepted build (as in the first post of this thread), you must provide reasons for your changes, and argue about the relative strength of the designs.

Sample complaints: Unified Will and Counterspell cannot hope to compete with Force of Will, the lack of the fourth Crystalline Sliver is very distressing, and the Scepter seems misplaced. Where are the Swords to Plowshares, a staple in almost any deck with white mana? In fact, I cannot see how any of the additions or changes you've proposed benefits the performance of the deck.

You say that it does well in the Legacy format, but I just cannot believe that. Have you tested against a seasoned Legacy player with a traditional Zoo deck? Its own army will likely outnumber yours, making half of your countermagic useless. Its mountain of removal will not only get rid of your Scepters and Vials but also your creatures.

I can appreciate the fact that you're just starting and do not have access to some of the rarer cards, but if you're designing with such constraints, you should post it as a casual deck in the appropriate place. Alternately, I'd look at building a high quality single-color deck if you're just starting out. This gets around the obvious problems of acquiring the mana base necessary to power a multicolor deck.

Good luck!

Okay, sorry for posting in the wrong place...but, as long as I'm responding, I'll try to explain some of my changes.

I didn't put Swords to Plowshares in because I'm a little iffy about making my opponent life. At least I think that's the way it works. I would much rather use Terminate for removal. I am not sure why Swords would be a better option than Path to Exile, for instance. Someone who decides to run Cradle of Vitality could make someone else's Swords work in their favor.

Also, the problem that I noticed with Force of Will is that you can't imprint it onto a Scepter. Counterspell allows you to counter any number of things this way. I have thought about running that card simply because you don't have to pay any mana for it...the problem is obviously the cost it would take to acquire the card; I suppose you could say my version is Countersliver on a budget. :P

I did notice that I hadn't put in a fourth Crystalline Sliver, although it's easy enough to get rid of a Frozen Aether or something and just put Legion into the sideboard.

I haven't played in any tournaments other than what's in my area locally, and I don't know if anyone was playing a Zoo deck or not. However, my own personal experience was the deck ran so fast that I got Shifting Sliver out pretty early a lot of the time and I was swinging for game by turn 5 or 6. I've tried as much as I could to prepare for whatever eventuality I might come across with the exception of a graveyard that powers up someone's creatures. If I had the good multicolored lands, I would throw in a Bojuka Bog or something, but I don't have those, so I'm kind of limited.

I threw in Linvala to avoid things like Deathless Angel, Vent Sentinel and leveler cards. If I don't need to play it, I'll change it out for one of my other Slivers.I put in Tajuru because I am sure that someone will decide to play All is Dust or some Annihilator Eldrazi or other. It starts out in my sideboard because it's more of a preventative measure more than anything. Gemhide is in there so I can tap for mana on my opponent's turn with the Scepter. Heart Sliver is in there so I can attack or tap for mana right away. One of the things I realized in this deck is that it's a little mana-heavy, so I tried to balance that out by giving myself the option of tapping creatures for mana. I've thought about running Progentius in this deck, and if I could find a way to pull that off, I wouldn't mind playing Swords quite so much.

[kicks_422]

Wow. Cradle of Vitality, Deathless Angel, Vent Sentinel, leveler cards, All is Dust, Eldrazi... Nice metagame you got there. No wonder your deck can do well.

Also, a lot of your reasonings are pretty horrible. I suggest you read up on the format first, since most of the things people will say to you have been repeated so many times.

[FoulQ]

I smell troll.

Cradle of Vitality?
Hardcasting Progenitus?
VENT SENTINEL!?

Here's my recommendation, if you want to play legacy decks, go netdeck something, and once you have played against competitive legacy decks in a tournament setting a few times, you will be able to better design your slivers deck for that particular metagame.

Because nobody will be playing cradle of vitality. And if they are, I'm not sure www.mtgthesource.com is for you.

[KaraZorEl]

Wow. Cradle of Vitality, Deathless Angel, Vent Sentinel, leveler cards, All is Dust, Eldrazi... Nice metagame you got there. No wonder your deck can do well.

Also, a lot of your reasonings are pretty horrible. I suggest you read up on the format first, since most of the things people will say to you have been repeated so many times.

Okay, thanks for the advice. I get the impression that the strategies I've prepared for aren't giving me the best ideas... :-p

[Curby]

As kicks said, read up on the format. Assuming that you're being sincere, a lot of what you said are what might fall into the realm of "beginner's misconceptions." Here's a good start at getting rid of those:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?609

You'll find out why:

1) Swords to Plowshares is not just great, it's stellar
2) You want cards that take care of many threats
3) It's better to remove a threat than to invalidate it
4) If a card's good, you should run 3-4 of it. If a card's not good, you should not run it.

Most of these are intentional overgeneralizations. It's when you learn when to break the rules of thumb that you know you're getting good.

[Oiolosse]

Wow. Cradle of Vitality, Deathless Angel, Vent Sentinel, leveler cards, All is Dust, Eldrazi... Nice metagame you got there. No wonder your deck can do well.

Also, a lot of your reasonings are pretty horrible. I suggest you read up on the format first, since most of the things people will say to you have been repeated so many times.

Be kind. You can make the truth sound like it's not coming out of a puckered asshole.

[Tru3z3rox]

I've been playing the deck and I love it. It has been so much fun. I've also been testing mirror entity and I LOVE him. He has swung for the win in multiple games on his own.

Anyone else been having success with this deck? It is similar to fish in my opinion.

[GGoober]

Deck has fallen out of favor due to a couple of reason:
- Dies to mass removal and cannot recouperate without hibernation sliver
- hibernation sliver is weak post m10 combat rules
- EE@2, CB@2 kills the deck.
- Slivers needs to be in a swarm to function well, and this is its weakness.
EDIT: and a horrendously scary manabase (wastelands/mutavault) that dies to Wastelands

However, I am recently thinking of picking the deck up again, but in a non-countertop way.

I think Survival Slivers has more synergy: A rough list would be:

23 lands
3-4 Wasteland (cut these for more basics since slivers have trouble with manabase)
4 Mutavault
Fetches/Duals/Basics

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Muscle
4 Sinew
4 Crystalline
1 Gemhide
1 Talon Sliver/Essence Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Mirror Entity (pumps and then gets more pump from sliver synergy)
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Squee

4 Aether Vial
4 Survival

4 Standstill (or flex slots (probably Survival Advantage toolbox or Standstills)

I'm not too familiar with Slivers, but by playing Survival, you aim at the synergy of the tribal power of the deck i.e. amassing the slivers you need. Teeg will help against control/WoG/combo to some extent. You can squeeze in a 4th color to run hibernation sliver/thoughtseize. I think the stronger approach is to go like the goblin/merfolk approach: focus on tribal. Mutavault is quite sick in the deck and it gets pumped and eats Merfolks with their island walk :D

Sliver Legion can be played off Gemhide slivers or with Retainers if you need to win fast. I think control-slivers is not as synergistic as aggro slivers. Take a look at today's aggro decks, a lot of them are Survival based (e.g. UG madness) and really focus on winning fast. Slivers still lack speed but build up a sizeable big force that can block and stall games and alpha strike like goblins. I will probably run GWU Slivers with Survival + Standstill, with 4 Wasteland and 3-4 Mutavaults, focusing on a very aggro-advantage approach to the deck

[Tru3z3rox]

But it is quite similar to merfolk. It has the same strengths and weaknesses it does, except for that fact that it aggros better and has less against combo.

Also mirror entity speeds us up and improves the mirror/any tribal match. So godly.

[GGoober]

Yupp I always had the love for Slivers over fishes. They have about 8 lords, merfolks have about 12-16 now though :( And Merfolks has much better singleton creatures whereas slivers need each other out to function. This is the main drawback. There are more options with Slivers though e.g. Lifelink/flying/trample/haste/first strike, but these are not too accessible without making the maindeck clunky if you play counterslivers. Survival slivers won't run into the clunkiness since you run the best slivers (crystalline, muscle, sinew) and 1 copy of each utility slivers.

If Survival Madness can do so well so can Survival Slivers! Except Survival Madness is still 1-2 turns faster if they get out Suvival (it is the FASTEST survival deck to date when beating down).

[Tru3z3rox]

Well the flying one isn't clunky at all. It fits right in. Our answer is mirror entity though. It makes all of that excess mana useful. I've swung for 15 damage with only 3 slivers and 1 lord. Great finisher.

[Curby]

But it is quite similar to merfolk. It has the same strengths and weaknesses it does, except for that fact that it aggros better and has less against combo.

Where are all the three and four color merfolk decks? Where are the sliver lords which happen to not only pump, but also give evasion and other useful abilities while being moderately priced? Where are the 8 colorless land in Slivers, which not only boost our army but also directly attack their manabases? As decks, both are aggro-control. However, the underlying tribes are quite different, and these differences lead to differences in the decks.

EDIT: Was your statement comparing typical merfolk decks to crz87's list? If so then I'd say they're even more different.

It makes all of that excess mana useful. I've swung for 15 damage with only 3 slivers and 1 lord. Great finisher.

I used to run Worship when I just started out and didn't have access to all the cards, but dropped it cause it cost 4. While fighting Burn, Elves, and other things where life was relevant, I tried Essence Sliver but dropped it cause it cost 4. I more often found myself running on 2-3 land than I did 4+ land. It worked because of Aether Vial and cantrips, but I didn't exactly have oceans of mana. By and large, Mirror Entity was tried and discarded largely due to the lack of mana in the deck. Admittedly, this was back when the deck ran 17-18 land. Having more land and running a Survival toolbox with a single Entity is probably less horrible.

[Aadz0r]

Is it not a good idea to run more Mirror Entity's? Seems like he serves as a game-winner and it sucks to have you single copy get countered/destroyed. I'm guessing you wouldn't mind having it in your opening hand, and it could serve as a lord nr. 10-11. Great idea running it with the Survival engine though! I never really liked the Sliver Control list, but loved the tribe, so I had tried to make a more aggro list, but couldn't really make it work. I'm definately going to try this though;)