Is anybody thinking about trying new Jace in the SB? Seems like he could be good in longer games when you end up playing more control...in a counterwar or standstill situation, the CA and bounce could be great.
I would go with Seal of Cleansing because I personally have never found Pithing Needle to ever be useful. Also, one of the pros for splashing W/G is for artifact/enchantment removal so why not use it?Originally Posted by lotriderm
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Hi, I'm rather new to the deck, and play a rather stock list with the only major differances being SB and MD Wake Thrashers vs Sovereign.
From the bit I played I will say that the new Jace answers no deck directly, costs too much, and isn't shoring up any holes.
If my ideas are wrong I gladly will concede those points, but running Mindbreak Traps SB, I find it hard to emergency tap for them confidantly let alone a planeswalker who, w/o Fetchlands will only Brainstorm or Scry/Fateseal.
@lotriderm: I woul agree with everyone who says Seal since it is more versitle. The only thing I don't like about Seal is the 2cc. The other options aren't pretty; Dismantling Blow, Annul, 3cc Sorceries, or cards that have WW in the casting cost
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No, you're right, New Jace doesn't belong anywhere near this deck. He's not necessarily a bad card, but he really does nothing for us.
Just to reiterate, our plan is to drop little guys, watch them get bigger, cheat the opponent out of having a chance to play their best cards, and swing-swing-swing for the win as soon as possible. New Jace costs four mana, and does none of those things. Nor does he answer any of the problems we commonly have (creature sweepers, getting out-aggroed, getting locked out by cards like Moat or E-Plague).
I'm not trying to be a dick, but this is all I'm even gonna say about that card, because it's the epitome of a silly suggestion for us to use it in this deck.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Q: I hope that Worldwake brings a solid Merolk. But what would you rather have, a Merf that gives the troops flying or a Merf that gives the troops shroud?
Shoud but doubtful it'll happen. I mean seriously, why would people play meathooks then? I mean... not they they really do anyways. I guess that and a merfolk stifle card are on the top of the list. As for me, I'd like a lackey.. cough.
I am pretty sure wotc is not making decisions about what Merfolk to print with "playability of Slivers" in mind.
But on the topic...frankly, I will take any aggressively priced Merfolk that duplicates what some of the non-Merfolk spells already do.
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Definitely shroud out of those choices. But if they do print something like that it's gonna be an ally that only gives allies shroud...
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Merfolk cycler that bounces a creature if you control 1 or 2 merfolk.
Hey, I thought DTB threads were supposed to actually develop the deck. So what about Submerge in the mono-blue sideboard to deal with big baddies? It's really only useful when they're playing forests, but everything from Death and Taxes to Stax to Zoo to Thresh to almost any black deck is running Trops and Savannahs and Bayous now. Things like Dreadnought and Tombstalker will eventually run out of enablers, and you can even kill things "for good" by Submerging in response to them cracking a fetch (as suggested by Volt in meathooks discussion).
If we're supposed to be randomly daydreaming, then my suggestion is any 2-drop better than Silvergill Adept. He's OK utility and mediocre at combat; improvements in either or both areas would be nice. We've already got 23ish critters in the deck and we aren't going to get or very likely remove a lord, so it's the low end we should focus on.
Rules question: Apparently you can't Vial in Kira in response to targeted removal because the condemned has already been targeted. I heard someone claim that if you have Kira on the board, you can transform Mutavault to make it a critter and prevent targeting in response. Isn't it the same idea, and therefore impossible? I.e. by the time it becomes a critter and Kira's protection begins to apply, something is already targeting the critter.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
I'm pretty sure that this doesn't work either. Mutavault isn't a creature when it becomes targeted, so it doesn't even have the ability, so it can't even trigger.
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure the trigger will not occur.
Kirby, I think the trend is to splash more with the zen fetches. And that is a helping hand to Submerge. Honestly, I am liking that card more all the time. SB card, very likely. MD, not yet. I see the mirror, and Goblins as decks that Submerge is bad against. What others are there? Faerie Stompy? Pox?
Hmm. That's not a lot.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
But quite significant in terms of sideboard space. Submerge is not bad, but it only helps against one of our bad matchups (zoo), and not even to a great extent normally. Anything you do to zoo to slow them down does not help unless you are also setting up a good clock or wall of creatures. My only big problem is a lot of the situations you mentioned are against decks that we don't need too much more help against. If rock gets bigger I'd say it's a good call.
Silvergill Adept is ridiculously good, I'm surprised people don't like him. A 2/1 that replaces himself and is most of the time playable is definitely worth playing...
I don't have a lot of time for playtesting so I'd like to just put this out here: how often do you wish you could bounce something on the second turn for free to solidify your board position for Standstill? Say you've got a Mutavault but they have a Goyf already, that's not a race you'll likely win in the long run. Setting up an early Standstill doesn't seem TOO difficult, but Submerge could help make it even easier. I agree that I'm not sure where to put it though.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Silvergill Adept, when you think about it, does about what Bob does. He doesn't demand removal, but he draws the card immediately, whereas Bob is usually 1:1d on the spot.
Except if Silvergill Adept goes unanswered, he takes ten turns to win. If Dark Confidant goes unanswered, he takes considerably less time to win.
The only problems I have seen with Silvergill Adept in Merfolk is when he costs five, and the Merfolk player is unable to cast him because of that.
What does that even mean? Either you consider them in a vacuum and they both deal 2 damage per turn to the opp, or you consider them in the context of their respective decks and realize you're comparing unicorns to teapots. Sure, Confidant COULD draw into tons of threats, but he COULD be killed on sight and have a smaller net impact on the game than Adept, which is overwhelmingly likely to be bigger anyway during a real game.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Would you take Dark Confidant's ability on Silvergill Adept over the current ability? If your answer is yes, then your reply is pretty shortsighted. Using the "creature dies to removal" argument is flawed, as seen by the effectiveness of Tarmogoyf, a creature that dies to a majority of removal. Cantripping is awesome and all, but does not directly relate to a win. On the other hand, drawing five+ more cards than an opponent does directly relate to a win.
It is apparent that Silvergill Adept is fine where it is, but if there was a Dark Confidant merfolk, then obviously that would be used over Silvergill Adept (assuming both could not be used).
Ah, I didn't realize that we were talking about a hybrid creature between Adept and Bob. That would very likely would be chosen over the current Adept, if only to draw pressure off our lords.
Forbiddian started off by comparing the two though, and in that case the "creature dies to removal" argument is relevant because in one case you get a card, and in the other case you don't. Forbiddian seems to be saying that Bob is such a lightning rod that on average you'd draw about the same number of cards off Bob and Adept, in which case it's better to get the card instantly and not take damage from it.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Yes, HH is correct that Bob is better than Silvergill.
I'm just pointing out that Bob is widely regarded as the second best Legacy-legal creature, and he's a 2/1 for 1X who draws cards (and is generally simply killed on the spot because he's so crippling if you get to untap with him), and mostly agreeing with:
Obviously Silvergill isn't going to just go ahead and win the way Bob does, but Bob demands removal because letting Bob replace himself is so damning when card advantage in Legacy is so slim.
Imagine if Silvergill Adept were made strictly worse by changing the ability to, "When it comes into play, if ~ is still in play, draw a card." Let's call it Bronzegill Adept. Now it is more similar to Bob. Bronzegill Adept would almost always be a burn or Swords target if possible, because the draw could be stopped by removing it and any removal spell is an effective 2:1 for that window.
I always think of SA as being in the same order of magnitude as Bob. Most of the time Bob and Bronzegill Adept would get removed immediately and each generate nothing, and thus be effectively the same card (Bob is clearly better when they stick, but when they have removal, it's just a push). Since Silvergill Adept is strictly better than Bronzegill Adept, it's not too much of a stretch from there to realize that Silvergill Adept is pretty fucking good. It's better than Bob when they have removal and much worse when they don't, but still in the same ballpark.
I can't imagine anybody hating on that.
It's pretty late, hope someone was able to follow that.
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