[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[gustha]

Haha! I like that.
---

So yeah, comparing Jace 2.0 to FoF/Jace 1.0 appears to be the right approach to evaluate its power.
Personally, I've been more than happy with the old Jace, playing him as a 2/3-of in a SpeedWalkerStill shell. FoF never felt like a wincondition, while Jace seems to win the game quite frequently if he resolves.
So for me it's rather an old Jace VS. new Jace issue.
I haven't tested him yet, but I'm a 100% positive that this guy is insane.
Being able to cast a free BS every turn, without even having to spend loyalty counters? Heck, I'd most likely include him as a 2-of even if this was his only ability!
I'll even go as far as to predict that he'll be adapted by just as many other archetypes as Elspeth, only with a little less delay.
Who knows maybe Lorescale Coatl will be playable afterall.
---
@ Gustha:
Yeah, I also like the fact that Jace the Mindsculptor is almost EE prove. It's happened a couple of times that I had to blow up my own just to get rid of opposing B2Bs and stuff.

If left unchecked, this jace will do disasters. I'm actually testing it as a 1-of in the MD of my UWr SpeedWalkerstill (lolz, great name! ), in the place of my 3rd jace1.0. I'd maybe add another copy sb for control MU's. The fact is, I'm a bit disappointed with his cc, though the fact he doesn't die to EE it's great. I mean, old jace can be cast on t3-4 (if you suspect daze) with eot swords to be sure you have the coast clear to cast it and tap out safe the next turn. This comes down on t4-5 and the chance you have to spend another spot removal to tap out safe is kinda annoying. As what concerns loyalty, the difference between going -1 with a cc3 jace of going 0 with the cc4 one is hardly noticeable: they both die to "bolt" (or nacatl, exalted pridemage, etc. etc.).

It's unsummon ability is not at instant speed, and this is annoying as well. ok, cast it on turn4-5 and then unsummon, you are tapped out. Good to do against aggrocontrol (but the Mu should be in landstill favour's anyway, if no black is in sight), but with a resolved vial? Unsummon your lord and then you find it on the table eot as well? I'd rather keep a mana to swords the guy. Marit lage? If your opponent is stupid to combo off in his turn and not in your eot, then the trick should work.

I mean, brainstorm ability is good. The first one is even good, if the coast is clear and you are in recursion with EE or you have in other ways a good board control, you can dare to reach the ultimate, it will win faster than elspeth.

Was it cc3, it would've replace suddenly old jace. But for his actual cost, for the moment is deserves only 1 slot for me. (But maybe it's I'm too fond of old jace. I should maybe replace all the 3 copies with the new one, and test how many times I'd want old jace instead.)

EDIT: I'm already testing it in counterbant (no coatl, his first ability is better in that archetype) and in blue stax. Wincon + free brainstorm among chalices spheres wires etc.? check!

[Tea]

Hello,
I would like to hear your opinion on Spell Pierce for the SB. I’ve been really impressed by Red Elemental Blast. But after a bit of thought, I’ve got the feeling that the red splash for REB might be unnecessary, because there is already Spell Pierce (and Negate), which is in some way even more versatile than REB. Is Spell Pierce worth in such a slow deck as it is Landstill? I consider Spell Pierce as a SB-card for the combo- and the control-matchup.

[gustha]

Hello,
I would like to hear your opinion on Spell Pierce for the SB. I’ve been really impressed by Red Elemental Blast. But after a bit of thought, I’ve got the feeling that the red splash for REB might be unnecessary, because there is already Spell Pierce (and Negate), which is in some way even more versatile than REB. Is Spell Pierce worth in such a slow deck as it is Landstill? I consider Spell Pierce as a SB-card for the combo- and the control-matchup.

Spell pierce is a good MD and SB card for tempo decks, which develop their game plan rather quickly, don't want to reach the late game and sometimes do mana denial. I don't include combo decks in the category, I don't believe they have to win on turn 1, but rather then they have to win protected (one shot one kill). Landstill, on the other hand, is a deck that WANTS to reach the late game (hopefully alive ^^), doesn't develop quickly its game and occasionally do mana denial (though opinions on this point may diverge). Spell pierce, while a good card, is imho not functional to the overall game plan of landstill. Red elemental blast, furthermore, serves other funcions: it's nutz in the control mirror (countering all counters, standstill, counterbalance, jace, etc.), acts as extra counter/removal vs merfolks, hits cantrips and dredge enablers in combo decks, etc. etc. etc. So for me is a no for pierce and a yes to reb. Too good not to have at least 2 in the sb.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Hey Guys,

Went 4-1-1 yesterday, followed by T8 where I lost in the semifinals. I still doubt my mulligancall there, what do you guys think? Game 3, against a pretty standard Eva Green list (Rituals, Hippies, shit like that), I'm on the draw.

Spell Snare, Spell Snare, Force, Vindicate, Standstill, Wasteland, Tundra

I'll post below what happened.

I played this list, and boarded 2 Vindicate and 2 Paths for 2 Wishes, Moat and Decree, so you have an idea what you will mulligan into.

4 tundra
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
4 flooded strand
1 polluted delta
1 marsh flats
2 island
2 plains
4 mishras factory
3 wasteland
1 eternal dragon
3 elspeth, knight errant
2 jace beleren
2 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
3 standstill
2 cunning wish
4 swords to plowshares
3 engineered explosives
2 wrath of god
1 moat
4 force of will
3 counterspell
3 spell snare
1 decree of justice

SB

2 vindicate
1 pulse of the fields
1 ravenous trap
4 extirpate
1 enlightened tutor
2 path to exile
4 enigineered plague

He starts Swamp, Thoughtseize on my Force
I drop Tundra
He wastes.
I drop Wasteland.
He rituals into Hypnotic Specter and Wastes my land
I draw StP
He drops Land, attacks with Hippie (1/6 chance, but yes: StP.), drops Goyf
I find Land, but my removal is gone now.
I scoop short after that.

Please, no comments on my list. I'm going to change some things, but I'm really happy with the basis. Functions perfectly in the Dutch metagame.

[Tinefol]

I'd probably mulligan this. Keeping a hand that folds to one wasteland is generally a bad thing. And you are ought to expect wastelands in this match. Have it been the basic Island, or Fetch instead of Tundra, I would probably keep it.

[Elf_Ascetic]

In the meanwhile, I ran this list through a program that generates starting hands, to see how many 6'ers are better then this 7. Did it 25 times:
6 better
2 maybe
17 worse.

You can try for yourself, here. Refresh for a new hand, and cover one card to pretend it's a mulligan.

[Tinefol]

Probably not. The above hand is absolutely awful, if you opponent happens to hold a single Wasteland. He did, two of them. Anything that would have let you cast at least a single spell would have been better.

[Elf_Ascetic]

This hand does not roll over to a thoughtseize. Chances of having only one relevant card are pretty high with only six cards. (Card I call relevant: StP, SSnare, Force+Blue (not counting SSnare of BS), Top and Brainstorm)

Maybe you're right about the Wasteland thing, but I only lost in the case of Wastelanding right away. If he took the time to cast something first, I probably would have won. There are two chances involved here: Does he hold Wasteland? And does he play it correctly?

[Tinefol]

The first chance amounts roughly to 44%, the second is irrelevant. You shouldn't count on your opponents making the wrong calls. If they do - you benefit, but don't plan on it. 44% is much too high for my taste :/

[klaus]

Spell Snare, Spell Snare, Force, Vindicate, Standstill, Wasteland, Tundra

That's an easy one: >>keep<<.
Here are some scenarios:
T1:
1.) Him: land go -> you win. (play Wasteland, force his T2 play, land Standstill)
2.) Him: Thoughtseize.
That's a tricky one. This scenario will more or less force you to open with Tundra (to have access to U for Spell Snare) whatever happens. There are 2 basic sub-scenarios: 1: You FOW TS, leaving you vulnerable to his T2 play but concealing your weak mana situation.
2: You let TS resolve - he'd be picking FOW if he was smart. You need to play your Tundra to be able to cast Spell Snare on T2. An opposing Wasteland could break your neck here, BUT: him using his Wasteland grants you a mini Timewalk too - and either way, being on the draw gives you an extra virtual Ancestral Recall to find more land (T1 draw, play land, T2 draw, play land, T3 draw - with every landless draw increasing your chances to draw another land the next turn).
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Any opening that does not include first turn targeted discard or a ritual boosted threat (namely anything that lets you keep your FOW) should be followed by dropping your Wasteland first.
Mana denial aims at colored lands in the first place - it's mostly about color screwing I think. So your opponent should be much more likely to spare your Wasteland than your Tundra, increasing your chances for a successful T2 Standstill.
...
For me beating Eva Green resolves around getting down a Standstill, period.
Standstill will either buy you enough time to make your land drops and get you out of mana denial range or triple-draw you into at least 1 land and a Brainstorm or Top or FOW all of which rock.

[konsultant]

In the meanwhile, I ran this list through a program that generates starting hands, to see how many 6'ers are better then this 7. Did it 25 times:
6 better
2 maybe
17 worse.

You can try for yourself, here. Refresh for a new hand, and cover one card to pretend it's a mulligan.

I'd have kept that hand every time, he could tell me he had Wasteland and I would have kept it. I don't know your exact list but I run 5 basics and 6 fetch's, statistically you very easily could have drawn one of them in the next turn or two and been right back in the game, not to mention if he didn't have waste you pretty much won the game. Losing cards against a deck like that by mulliganing is terrible, you almost need to open 2 basic's brainstorm and standstill to make up for the mulligan. You can't win tournaments without taking chances at some point in the day, I say congrats for having the balls to roll the dice in top 4.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Ok, tnx for your responses. I would make the same call again now, but looking back there is always the "should-I-have-mulliganned?"-insecurity, and it great being able to discuss that. Well, better luck next GPT, plenty to come.

Great holidays to you all, have a great start in 2010, and let us all win many tournaments with landstill next year. :)

[neenjafus]

I'm just getting into legacy. took a few years off magic but been a long time vintage player so I'm fairly comfortable with the format.

My problem often comes to sideboarding. Specifically, I'll be going into a relatively unknown metagame so I don't know if there are really good meta calls that I should board. The bigger issue is that this deck is fairly tuned to beat aggro and aggro control strategies so I often can't think of anything to take out against decks like that.

Can anyone help me out with some sideboard strategies or point me to a good (current) article that I can read?

I don't necessarily expect to win my first tourney after a long break but I'd like to be as prepared as possible.

Thanks!

[GoldenCid]

My problem often comes to sideboarding.

I think wish decreases this problem.
I've been playing and testing with this deck at point i got the idea that mystical tutor has a big value for the deck. I brings wrath, swords, decree, wish and others. I'm not really very sure on my pack of counters ( 8 ) because the variability of this tip through the lists. on the other aspects, my list makes me feel sure. Take a look. Comments and suggestions are very welcomed:

// Lands
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
2 [UL] Faerie Conclave
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Tundra
2 [DIS] Hallowed Fountain
1 [RAV] Watery Grave
2 [7E] Island (2)
2 [MR] Plains (1)

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [6E] Counterspell
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [6E] Wrath of God
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [OD] Standstill
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [TE] Humility
1 [5E] Nevinyrral's Disk
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [6E] Mystical Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [A] Disenchant
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [6E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [M10] Silence
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth

[rsaunder]

Why disenchant over return to dust or dismantling blow? Seems like it doesn't hit CB very well and can't generate CA.

[Citrus-God]

Why disenchant over return to dust or dismantling blow? Seems like it doesn't hit CB very well and can't generate CA.

If you think Disenchant in the board is questionable, the mana base is atrocious.

[neenjafus]

I really don't understand tolaria west and I couldn't see droping to only 1 ee. I run 3 and so far I've really liked it and am rarely dissapointed at seeing 1 (unless I'm winning)

With little in the way of card advantage, I can't see mystical being worth running. If you drop them for spell snare, drop a counterspell and a crusible for ee then you're pretty close to my list although I do run eternal dragon. I haven't made my mind up on the dragon yet but he does seem pretty good so far.

Have to agree with the above in that I couldn't see that mana base helping you at all. 3 cipt lands makes me want to cry. I run 6 basics and am rarely sad at seeing basics early but I know most folk run at least 5 basics. It's because they are good ;P

[GoldenCid]

I really don't understand tolaria west and I couldn't see droping to only 1 ee. I run 3 and so far I've really liked it and am rarely dissapointed at seeing 1 (unless I'm winning)

With little in the way of card advantage, I can't see mystical being worth running. If you drop them for spell snare, drop a counterspell and a crusible for ee then you're pretty close to my list although I do run eternal dragon. I haven't made my mind up on the dragon yet but he does seem pretty good so far.

Have to agree with the above in that I couldn't see that mana base helping you at all. 3 cipt lands makes me want to cry. I run 6 basics and am rarely sad at seeing basics early but I know most folk run at least 5 basics. It's because they are good ;P

I know that tolaria is not a broken card but it's a land tutor for academy, wasteland or mishra's. It's just one and it's sad seeing it with other cipt land in hand but it's not very often.
After testing a little i'm considering a 3 spell snare 3 CS and 4 FOW as counterpack. What i don't get so much is why 2 or 3 EE???

[Tinefol]

Because EE is one of the best versatile removal spells in the game. I'd say only PerDeed is better, but it can't be run in a UW deck for obvious reasons.

[rsaunder]

Because EE is one of the best versatile removal spells in the game. I'd say only PerDeed is better, but it can't be run in a UW deck for obvious reasons.

Especially if you're running ruins... That's really the only reason I'd consider running west or ruins in the first place, recurring EE.