[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[Rico Suave]

That is just marginal. While the converted mana cost is higher you can't just analyse it that way with such a small sample of games. Even without the DD package you can just flip Tendrils, IGG, IT, IT, Cabal Ritual.

What I really would like to know is how many games he thought SDT was better/worse than Ponder, now that's relevant.

Analyzing is not about what can happen. It is about what actually did happen.

The simple fact of the matter is running a bunch of Grips, Doomsdays, and other expensive spells makes AN far more likely to fizzle. Guess what? It did fizzle.

It's one thing to write it off as bad luck, but it's a mistake to write it off as bad luck when the deck's construction was a critical part of why he got "unlucky."

[Elf_Ascetic]

Analyzing is not about what can happen. It is about what actually did happen.

The simple fact of the matter is running a bunch of Grips, Doomsdays, and other expensive spells makes AN far more likely to fizzle. Guess what? It did fizzle.

It's one thing to write it off as bad luck, but it's a mistake to write it off as bad luck when the deck's construction was a critical part of why he got "unlucky."

You're blaming DD decks for running Grip. DD list can be done without a grip as well, with only DD and Meditate being more expensive post-AdN.

I think the argument isn't the slightly higher CC, it's the ability to go into AdN with some mana floating. (the more mana you have, the lower the fizzlechance is, obv). Straight AnT list are clearly better at doing so, because of Cabal Ritual instead of Meditate, and the option to cast Infernal Tutor instead of DD post-AdN.

[Nidd]

You're blaming DD decks for running Grip. DD list can be done without a grip as well, with only DD and Meditate being more expensive post-AdN.

I think the argument isn't the slightly higher CC, it's the ability to go into AdN with some mana floating. (the more mana you have, the lower the fizzlechance is, obv). Straight AnT list are clearly better at doing so, because of Cabal Ritual instead of Meditate, and the option to cast Infernal Tutor instead of DD post-AdN.

Do I have to worry now? I play DDANT with Meditate and some Cabal Rituals. May I ask for your list?

[alderon666]

Analyzing is not about what can happen. It is about what actually did happen.

The simple fact of the matter is running a bunch of Grips, Doomsdays, and other expensive spells makes AN far more likely to fizzle. Guess what? It did fizzle.

It's one thing to write it off as bad luck, but it's a mistake to write it off as bad luck when the deck's construction was a critical part of why he got "unlucky."

Yeah he fucked up, boarding in all those 3's and then trying to go off Nauseam creates a greater chance to fizzle. Even though he had very bad luck there.

What I was saying is that it's not an argument on the whole DD vs. ANT discussion, we all know Ad Nauseam is worse in DD builds. What really interests me is the Ponder vs. Top tradeoff.

[Nemavera]

I won more than 3 Games via DD and I really love the card, it is really awesome. I think I won every single game where I resolved a Top, but the first game against Iggy Pop. I'd never play without Top again and the same is true for Doomsday. Both cards increase the powerlevel of the deck by a great margin and whenever I play combo without these cards I miss them hard. To my mind Top >>>>> Ponder.
Yeah as I already mentioned taking out IGG and keeping AdN was a mistake. Yet, especially pure AdN lists rely on it that much, and they have to board K-Grip vs. CB, too. So they are much more likely to fizzle, cause they just have the AdN route.

I got the booster pack for 15€. It was a german limited (fbb) booster pack.

Carpet won a game against Merfolk and I was glad to have it, cause CT was played really often.

Xantid Swarm wins games by shutting off your opponents chants in the mirror, so that you can use all of your chants offensively to disrupt your opponent. You just drop a Swarm and win the turn it's able to attack.

[B.C.]

I'd never play without Top again and the same is true for Doomsday.

I'm pretty much converted at this point too. Top/DD slow the deck down by about 0.5 turns, but what they take away in speed they more than make up for in versatility. Giving yourself possibilities in the mid-late game is pretty key.

[emidln]

Can someone explain why Xantid Swarm is good in the mirror please? Is it just to prevent their chants?

Yes. It lets you be offensive without actually drawing your Ad Nauseam so you can end step it. Otherwise, you need two chants to make sure that you can chant them into their own chant and still protect yourself on their turn. This is why extirpate is sometimes good in the mirror and why the hand information that Duress/Thoughtseize provides is also really strong. Being able to drop a guy like Dark Confidant or Xantid Swarm while still threatening Orim's Chant is huge.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I won more than 3 Games via DD and I really love the card, it is really awesome. I think I won every single game where I resolved a Top, but the first game against Iggy Pop. I'd never play without Top again and the same is true for Doomsday. Both cards increase the powerlevel of the deck by a great margin and whenever I play combo without these cards I miss them hard. To my mind Top >>>>> Ponder.
Yeah as I already mentioned taking out IGG and keeping AdN was a mistake. Yet, especially pure AdN lists rely on it that much, and they have to board K-Grip vs. CB, too. So they are much more likely to fizzle, cause they just have the AdN route.

I got the booster pack for 15€. It was a german limited (fbb) booster pack.

Carpet won a game against Merfolk and I was glad to have it, cause CT was played really often.

Xantid Swarm wins games by shutting off your opponents chants in the mirror, so that you can use all of your chants offensively to disrupt your opponent. You just drop a Swarm and win the turn it's able to attack.

QFT!!! Well said, finally someone has taken the time to understand how DD works and then run it!

On another very positive note, at my local cardshop, one of Andy Probasco's good friends (can't remember his name but we call him Amadeus because he looks like Mozart) borrowed DDANT and made top 8 with it out of about 32ish people. Before the tournament he asked me about DD stacks and I told him 3 then just said, count your mana and storm and you will be fine as long as you just anticipate how you are going to draw into the stacks. He made top 8 with limited knowledge of combo and even won a game (albeit very slowly) with a very complex DD stack where he had to IGG first then regain Thresh and cast another Cabal Ritual into DD with Meditate in hand and BB floating with Petal in play. I was watching and saw he had the win, and he eventually saw it as well!

Its very good to see people playing DD and understanding the versatility! On a side note, I scroll past it and haven't read one of his posts in a while, but Rico Suave is on my ignore list, please stop quoting him so no one has to read what he said again :)

[mercc]

That is just marginal. While the converted mana cost is higher you can't just analyse it that way with such a small sample of games. Even without the DD package you can just flip Tendrils, IGG, IT, IT, Cabal Ritual.

What I really would like to know is how many games he thought SDT was better/worse than Ponder, now that's relevant.

If you are playing the version with LED that can happen. But if you play linux list or mine, then that cant happen. It's very easy. Count all the CC in your deck and get the average CC, that is the percentage that will determine it all.

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Why not play a DD list without ANT. Or maybe a DD/IGG-loop list? This is where emidl comes in, Skip AdN

[mercc]

Its very good to see people playing DD and understanding the versatility! On a side note, I scroll past it and haven't read one of his posts in a while, but Rico Suave is on my ignore list, please stop quoting him so no one has to read what he said again :)

That's a fantastic idea to do in a forum where people share opinions and really, work towards the same goal, winning with a combodeck.

I hope politicians start doing this, ignoring each other when they have a different opinion.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I totally agree, things would be so much better!!!!

[Davetradint]

Look at this!!

3 ANT Top8 amongst 136 players!!
Needless to say that 2 of them play DD stuff.

http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?e...ap+Legacy+2009

Curious...

[CUB3X]

And all 3 played SDT in their builds. The non-DD build playing 4 BS 4 Ponder and 2 Tops.

The non-DD list looks really strange.

Silence over Duress, and only 2 Chrome Moxes

And can someone tell me what the reason is for Hurykl's Recall in the sideboard is??

[badjuju]

And can someone tell me what the reason is for Hurykl's Recall in the sideboard is??

The real question is the 4x Snow-covered Mountains. Am I missing something here or is that a typo or possibly to conceal tech? No extra DD in boards either.

Also, Hurkyl's Recall is the obvious answer against chalice decks.

The DD MBs are pretty much the same, as expected. I am also going to make the -1 Krosan Grip +1 Ponder mb. There's just not as much countertop where I am.

[alderon666]

And all 3 played SDT in their builds. The non-DD build playing 4 BS 4 Ponder and 2 Tops.

The non-DD list looks really strange.

Silence over Duress, and only 2 Chrome Moxes

And can someone tell me what the reason is for Hurykl's Recall in the sideboard is??

Silence is better in most cases unless your opponent is dropping permanent-based disruption on you(Runed Halo, Chalice of the Void). Silence is good against non disruptive decks (goblins, elfs) also because you can Chantwalk them, I've won game casting 3 upkeep chant effects and then going off on turn 4.

Chrome Moxes are there for the sole porpouse of making your AdN better. They suck most of the time.

Against Staxx Matchups, anything playing artifact based disruption like Ethersworn Canonist, etc.


We play AdN so we can have an aggressive way to win the game. It's Plan C, being DD plan A and IGG loop plan B. In some games where you opponent just is not applying enough pressure you can just play a AdN with zero mana and win.

[GreenOne]

The real question is the 4x Snow-covered Mountains. Am I missing something here or is that a typo or possibly to conceal tech?

Obviously it's to bring in extra lands against black land destruction decks, and to feint a transformational SB, and to become awesomely immune to choke.

[Elf_Ascetic]

And all 3 played SDT in their builds. The non-DD build playing 4 BS 4 Ponder and 2 Tops.

The non-DD list looks really strange.

Silence over Duress, and only 2 Chrome Moxes

And can someone tell me what the reason is for Hurykl's Recall in the sideboard is??

That's our team. Or, 3 of them at least. Recall is the ultimate answer for multiple Chalices, Thorns and Trinisphere.

Both DD-ANT lists played each other in the quarterfinals, the winner losing to Reanimate (Force, Thoughtseize en Extirpate = no fun). ANT lost to Dreadstill in the quaters.

Bahamuth is one of these pilots, and he T4'd this weekend again, now with a non-DD list. Figuring out if DD improves the deck is hard, so it seems..

[Bahamuth]

We board in the Snow-Covered mountains to pretend to have a transformational sideboard to mono red Quinn.

[practical joke]

That's our team. Or, 3 of them at least. Recall is the ultimate answer for multiple Chalices, Thorns and Trinisphere.

Both DD-ANT lists played each other in the quarterfinals, the winner losing to Reanimate (Force, Thoughtseize en Extirpate = no fun). ANT lost to Dreadstill in the quaters.

Bahamuth is one of these pilots, and he T4'd this weekend again, now with a non-DD list. Figuring out if DD improves the deck is hard, so it seems..

iona, would like to have a word with you.

I have to admit, it was one of the most exciting matches I ever played.

As far as I've played against the deck, played it and saw it's matches. doomsday does give the deck more options to choose from and with with SDT, Brainstorm fetch and the whole package it has the capability to find answers easier. though it does seem to come with a little loss of speed.

[citanul]

The real question is the 4x Snow-covered Mountains. Am I missing something here or is that a typo or possibly to conceal tech? No extra DD in boards either.

Also, Hurkyl's Recall is the obvious answer against chalice decks.

The DD MBs are pretty much the same, as expected. I am also going to make the -1 Krosan Grip +1 Ponder mb. There's just not as much countertop where I am.

Dutch Legacy Champs?
The mountains are a tech they wanted to be kept secret for the other tournaments. It's Carpet of Flowers.