With the rise of all the Loam Deck during the last couple of weeks, Jötun Grunt is the creature of our choice.
Smmenen mentioned it in his new list, Maindeck and Sideboard, an Alix Hatfield, who finished 9th in a 270 player event here in germany, due to a bad draw in the last round, hat jötun grunt in his sideboard.
Is it time to get him beat in our lists, maybe als a two-of instead of.....?
Would be nice to here your thinkings.
I my eyes, the worst creature in my deck is the kird ape, may I will have to cut him. My basic list ones again can you find here.
In this case, why not run Plated Geopede and Vineslasher Kudzu?Originally Posted by SaturdayKnight
Why not use Goyf over Mongoose? Mongoose costs 1 but will only be a 1/1 if dropped early. What's the average turn that you get Threshold? Later in the game, you can probably afford to pay a colorless more. With Zoo's increasing popularity, I anticipate seeing more sweeper spells being tossed around, and Mongoose's ass of 3 doesn't save it from Flamebreak nor Firespout.
@Grunt: How would you design around him maindeck? We want lands and a variety of cards in the yard for Knight and Goyf, and extras are often eaten up by Lavamancer already. Lavamancers, Goyfs, Knights, and Grunts may give us 12-14 graveyard-dependent cards, which turns our deck into the sort of thing that Grunts are used against and not in. I certainly acknowledge that he's good at getting rid of their graveyard while beating down, but it's getting a bit strained...
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
The problem is that Grunt hits our Goyfs, Reliquaries and Mancers. The way to combat Loam, the way I see it, is graveyard hate Relics and Tormods.
I would say no to the Plated Geopede simply because it is a 2 drop instead of a 1, but Vinelasher Kudzu might be a possibility ... but I think 12, 1CC creatures are key to this deck to ensure a first turn drop. zoo never wants to give up first turn without dropping a creature, no?
my old version ran grunts straight instead of Goyf and ran Thoctar instead of KotR... it worked out, but was still hard to keep the grunt alive for most matchups early in the game. often times, the grunt ended up sitting in my hand to do unavailable resources
+1
This card is just insane in today's meta.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Seeing that Jamie Hatfiled ran Lynxes over Kird Apes at Hanau is there any chance that people here will start to revise their opinion on the card and actually test it?
They sure worked for me, but then again I don't want go get draw into that pointless argument again, whether I was playing Zoo, or GoyfSligh... hence I called the deck cats.
They are pretty swingy, but also have a completely unmatched damage potential, enabling third turn kills and therefore highly improving you combo MU. Granted, you have to pay much more attention to your landdrops, when and what to fetch, etc and they're dead draws in the midgame.
On the other hand, they help you to never even reach the midgame. Furthermore after beeing hit once, your oponent is most likely to point his removal on them, so they draw fire from your other critters. In my opinion, their benefits outweight thier weaknesses.
Sneaky Pirates of Doom - Not really a Legacy Team anymore.
Id rather cast another 1cc and spot-remove an opponents threat than cast a 2cc Helix early in the game. And two Helixes in your opening screws things even more.
Steppe Lynx seems much better than Kird Ape unless you're planning for plenty of blocking and/or attrition. I think the more agressive your stance is in the metagame, the better the lynx is. I'm willing to risk having my 1-drop be mediocre once in a while if it means adding the ability to essentially steal games and to, more than likely, increase your clock on average. 2/3's for 1 are so blase; bring on the 1 mana erhnam djinns!
Ever heard of the mulligan rule? Come on, if you've lost because you had 2 Helixes in your opening hand then you shouldn't have kept that hand. There's no reason not to run some of the strongest cards just because there's a slight chance you might have 2 in your openings hand.
On the Lynx topic. I played this dude who had a Lynx version of zoo. It was very explosive but I won with my Zoo (Lightning Helix was a house here btw). I think that deck is way too suicidal. I personally am not willing to take the risk. I'd rather 'risk' getting into the midgame with the regular Zoo list.
The strength of the regular Zoo deck is that it has an answer to almost every problem you're opponent can put on the table and still be as aggressive as any other aggro deck. We have a good chance to win against almost every deck. Even ANT as long as you're smart enough to run 4 Gaddock Teeg in your SB. I find Reanimator, Aggro Loam and Dreadstill the unfavourable match ups. Other countertop decks and ANT about 50/50.
Man, do I like this deck.
Now when you say Lynx version. was Lynx v Kird Ape the only difference? Or did he also have some support for lynx (ie crop rotation or something of the like)?
It was more of a RG sligh with splash w. It also featured Goblin Guides, the usual burn package and POP main. And Sulfuric Vortex side (which caught me with my pants down once). But that's about all I know about his list. I don't think he had any other support for lynx.
I think its important to have some support for Lynx to truly be effective / game changing. Whether that is a higher amount of fetches, KotR, crop rotation, or something it doesn't matter. I was playing last night and I thought back to the original BIG disagreement in this thread ... StP vs PtE. With Lynx having variable power and with the possibility of him becoming 4/5 or 8/9, StP to a Lynx after combat phase is starting to sound like a good idea. It would have saved me a few times last night. StP'ing a lynx at 8/9 would create a possible 16 point swing versus your opponent. I don't know who would be happy to be playing against that.
Also Zoo shines in the midgame as well. It's not just an aggro deck, it's threats and spells double as midgame threats and spells as well. That's why i don't worry about getting into the midgame much at all. You still have 3/3s for 1 and 3 damage for 1 mana, plus library manipulation, plus good ole Lavamancer to feed off of your fallen allies. I just don't like Lynx because he seems too inconsistent and makes your opening hands too fetch dependent.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
In my experience you must run 14-15 fetches to get consistency with Steppe Lynx, but it is possible. It gives you power at the expense of consistency, just how much in both directions you're going is what's hard to quantify. I think the ambiguity of it is what turns people off. The 1 mana Erhnam Djinn is hard to resist for me, and I still urge everyone to try it alongside Reckless Charge, which also happens to make multiples considerably less terrible.
Last edited by troopatroop; 01-06-2010 at 05:50 PM.
Reckless Charge sounds nifty with lynx. I bet that makes for a hell lot of turn 3 kills. Would you mind to provide a list?
Sounds worse than Berserk/Fling-ing the cat.
There's noone saying you can't play Berserk/Fling on top of the Reckless Charges.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ght=Naya+Sligh
Page 2 of the Naya Sligh thread, with my list halfway down.
Of course any Magic player would like to minimize the chances of having to mulligan esp when youre on the play. Having less Helix(es) would definitely help with this argument. I almost always want to preserve the T1 Nacatl, T2 Ape and spot-remove-curve etc. Plus, Helix is susceptible to Spell Snare.Ever heard of the mulligan rule? Come on, if you've lost because you had 2 Helixes in your opening hand then you shouldn't have kept that hand. There's no reason not to run some of the strongest cards just because there's a slight chance you might have 2 in your openings hand.
On the Lynx topic. I played this dude who had a Lynx version of zoo. It was very explosive but I won with my Zoo (Lightning Helix was a house here btw). I think that deck is way too suicidal. I personally am not willing to take the risk. I'd rather 'risk' getting into the midgame with the regular Zoo list.
The strength of the regular Zoo deck is that it has an answer to almost every problem you're opponent can put on the table and still be as aggressive as any other aggro deck. We have a good chance to win against almost every deck. Even ANT as long as you're smart enough to run 4 Gaddock Teeg in your SB. I find Reanimator, Aggro Loam and Dreadstill the unfavourable match ups. Other countertop decks and ANT about 50/50.
Man, do I like this deck.
I had success with just 2 Helix(es) main and I can prove it. Maybe that would convince you a bit.
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