[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival

[Teumie]

also for me, been a while
I really loved this deck and played it at a few tourneys, but in the end always got disappointed with it being 'not just good enough' to be tier 1 ...

In my testing/playstyle, the therapies were no good ... they slowed me down a lot (T1 therapy, T2 elf and mayhap therapy again if necessary) which basically looses you 2 turns ...
anyway, I was thinking of including eyeblights ending, just to be able to destroy annoying creatures (wort in the gobo matchup, some tombstalker or a jitte equiped creature, ...)
I never tested it though ... (dumped the deck before testing it (sorry to say).

I also removed the wastelands and replaced them by forests, I was being too color screwed sometimes (opening with one wasteland and no other lands sucks) whereas they didn't win me that many games that i wouldn't have won otherwise.

the inclusion of relic, is it worth it? i mean do you play 4 main? I can see their advantages, but wouldn't 2 or 3 main be enough already (maybe include a jitte as well)?

why the woodfall primus? is it against moat? would a sky swallower not be better in that case? (or some other flyer)?

I played tsunami instead of choke just to play around counterbalance better. Is choke useful against f.e. supreme blue?

anyway, i think i will recreate this deck, it is just to fun to play and hope that someday we will be able to make it a 'deck to beat' ...

[Hawdes]

also for me, been a while
I really loved this deck and played it at a few tourneys, but in the end always got disappointed with it being 'not just good enough' to be tier 1 ...

In my testing/playstyle, the therapies were no good ... they slowed me down a lot (T1 therapy, T2 elf and mayhap therapy again if necessary) which basically looses you 2 turns ...
anyway, I was thinking of including eyeblights ending, just to be able to destroy annoying creatures (wort in the gobo matchup, some tombstalker or a jitte equiped creature, ...)
I never tested it though ... (dumped the deck before testing it (sorry to say).

I also removed the wastelands and replaced them by forests, I was being too color screwed sometimes (opening with one wasteland and no other lands sucks) whereas they didn't win me that many games that i wouldn't have won otherwise.

the inclusion of relic, is it worth it? i mean do you play 4 main? I can see their advantages, but wouldn't 2 or 3 main be enough already (maybe include a jitte as well)?

why the woodfall primus? is it against moat? would a sky swallower not be better in that case? (or some other flyer)?

I played tsunami instead of choke just to play around counterbalance better. Is choke useful against f.e. supreme blue?

anyway, i think i will recreate this deck, it is just to fun to play and hope that someday we will be able to make it a 'deck to beat' ...

The woodfall primus is there against trouble lands aswell, Glacial Chasm for example. Nothing that fits the Elf Deck (playing NO) hits lands except for Woodfall Primus or Acidic Slime, where I feel that Woodfall shines more as a silver bullet due to his massive body, persist and ofc, trample.
He could as well hit enchantments, and serve as Krosan grip number 4-7 with NO in the deck, post board ofc. Don't forget that he reads "noncreature permanent" which means he can take out planewalkers aswell... That could be relevant in some matchups.
Although a flying creature would be good, it's not as versetile as Woodfall, the only big green creatures that have flying in green (with shroud) is Empyrial Archangel and Simic... Then again, if it's a meta filled with decks that pack moat, then why not...
But decks running moat tend to not be as popular. Woodfall Primus feels better in more matchups than a big stupid flying creature, but that's just personal taste. I like utility.

I do feel that the 4 Relic of Progenitus main makes a big difference in many matchups. Most decks splash green for goyf or play some sort of grave manipulation as Loam, Intution etc. Keep in mind that people tend to play Dredge, some has adapted the new Bloodghast, and the unbanning of entomb has resulted in an uprising in the reanimator department (resolved reanimation of Ioona means scoop).
Against threshold and ANT, it removes threshold basically, making my Fyndhorns/Llanowars tradable with Mongeese. Against ANT it makes Cabal ritual a bad mana accelerant.
There might be decks that I forgot to mention when it also shines. But my experience with Cabal Therapy is that it's only good for the combo matchup or if you try to remove counters from control decks. Even if you name Tarmogoyf with Cabal Therapy, the topdecked goyf will still be a threat, but with the maindecked Relics, you only pop the relic to see a 0/1 green dude for 1G.

And that, in my opinion is what makes Relic of Progenitus suit the deck better than Cabal therapy.
I can't see what else to put in to the deck if i would cut them. More elves? Aether Vial? Vial doesn't fit imo since rather play a t1 mana elf or Quirion Dryad/Wirewood. That leaves us with more creatures. I would maybe add 2 Rofellos and 2 other... Maybe Vanquishers. But that won't help you more than ensuring you to get the mana ramp and some more "efficient" beaters. Maybe maindeck 4 Zealots against enchantments. Dunno.

Choke on the other hand, it's better than tsunami in some matchups, and worse than it in others. I believe you need the ability to cast it T2 with a T1 mana elf against fast combo decks that tend to brainstorm and filter the carddraw, like ANT. This will result in them having trouble to maintain their mana. Since it's post board, they will much likely just go off since they know that elves can't respond to their spells. Choke hinders them earlier. And by the time you get to 4 sources of mana, you might aswell be dead. Ofc, you can die T1 if they have the nuts draw, the only decks that can manage that are decks packing FoWs anyway. Go play blue if you want to be safe.
The only argument I have against Tsunami is that it costs 1 more, so if you feel that tsunami works for you and if you're in a heavy counter/top meta, then play Tsunami. I rely more on speed and like the fact that you're not required to have that many mana producing cards to smack down a choke on the table.
It requires 1-2 lands, 1-2 1 drop elves to get there as fast as possible. Unlike in Tsunami's case, you need to hit more lands or more mana producing elves.
To cast Choke T2:
T1: Land, Llanowar/Fyndhorn
T2: Land, Choke

To cast Tsunami:
T1: Land, Llanowar/Fyndhorn
T2: Land, Priest of Titania/Elvish Archdruid/Other mana producing elf (including Quirion here if you miss T3 land drop).
T3: Tsunami.

And that's if you have the optimal draw and playing solitaire. You could aswell get stifled in those matchups, resulting in less lands, if you fetch. And the fact that it takes a turn longer to cast Tsunami, it will result in them having +1 card drawn which could be the key piece in their CB/Top softlock or even a blue card to pitch to FoW or even FoW itself.
You want to minimize their chances to do anything about it.

[Atwa]

It's been a while since I've played elf survival, for some reason I've decided to play Eternal Garden at GP Madrid, and I spend all my time to it. However I still have some interest in this deck, and I found this card spoiled at MTG salvation.

Joraga Warcaller, G (Rare)
Creature - Elf Warrior
Multikicker 1G
Joraga Warcaller enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each time it was kicked.
Other Elf creatures you control get +1/+1 for each +1/+1 counter on Joraga Warcaller.
1/1

With all the Priests and Archdruids in this deck, we should be able to get this guy ridiculously large in a short amount of time. It makes a pretty good finisher I think. Any thoughts?

[godryk]

Is it any better than Mirror Entity? Ok, he's on color and creates permanent counters, but Mirror Entity makes "counters" twice as cheap and after you cast it. What really matters is that Mirror Entity was eventually dismissed because it was kind of win-more in Survival Elves. I could see it work in Elfball, as it's a cheap 1-mana drop that nets you cards off Glimpse of Nature and eventually can serve as a finisher.

[georgjorge]

The good thing is the flexibility though, as you can also just drop it as a Lord for three mana whenever you want to. So it can be used either as a big finisher or as a long-term boost to your team, whereas Entity doesn't really do much if you don't have the crazy mana production online.


EDIT: Illisius mentioned Immaculate Magistrate, which seems insane...with Survival out (and Anger in the yard), could this be a viable combo kill? It should be lethal if you have only three or four other Elves out...

[Illissius]

I actually think that if Immaculate Magistrate isn't good enough on its own, then it's not going to be good enough with Warcaller either, but feel free to prove me wrong. I mainly mentioned it for the awesomeness factor.

(We need some new words for awesome which are at least as awesome as awesome so we don't have to keep using awesome all the time.)

[leander?]

The awesome-problem is just caused by the influence of Americans on this website. Americans tend to exaggerate everything and call anything that's funny/nice/whatever awesome so they run out of words when something is better than awesome.
And non-native english speakers copy this way of speaking very easily, becouse copying is the best way to learn a language.

[godryk]

The awesome-problem is just caused by the influence of Americans on this website. Americans tend to exaggerate everything and call anything that's funny/nice/whatever awesome so they run out of words when something is better than awesome.
And non-native english speakers copy this way of speaking very easily, becouse copying is the best way to learn a language.

Yep! QFMFT! awesome is teh nutz as it sounds funtastic! Why would we evah need another word... OOOOOOSOM!

PS: This thead needs m0ar awesomeness

[Sevryn]

The awesome-problem is just caused by the influence of Americans on this website. Americans tend to exaggerate everything and call anything that's funny/nice/whatever awesome so they run out of words when something is better than awesome.
And non-native english speakers copy this way of speaking very easily, becouse copying is the best way to learn a language.

Awesome criticism.

In other news, English is dumb. Did you know that 'awful' and 'awesome' were originally synonymous? That 'goodbye' is an apostrophe-less contraction of "god be with you?" What about "'I' before 'E' except after 'C' or when sounding like 'A' as in 'neighbor' or 'weigh'... or if the word is specifically 'weird'"

BEST LANGUAGE EVER IMO.

[leander?]

I'm not saying English is dumb, I'm saying Americans are dumb.

[Sevryn]

I'm not saying English is dumb, I'm saying Americans are dumb.

Oh I agree that Americans are dumb, and I'm American. I just think that English is dumb, too.

[Azania]

Ermm lets get this back on topic shall we?. Now in regards to the following new card:

It's been a while since I've played elf survival, for some reason I've decided to play Eternal Garden at GP Madrid, and I spend all my time to it. However I still have some interest in this deck, and I found this card spoiled at MTG salvation.

Joraga Warcaller, G (Rare)
Creature - Elf Warrior
Multikicker 1G
Joraga Warcaller enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each time it was kicked.
Other Elf creatures you control get +1/+1 for each +1/+1 counter on Joraga Warcaller.
1/1

With all the Priests and Archdruids in this deck, we should be able to get this guy ridiculously large in a short amount of time. It makes a pretty good finisher I think. Any thoughts?

The card is good but as a single lord for 1GG it is the weakest of all. And atleast I do not run the full 12 lords. However it is quite flexible with the potential to ge around 2 engeneerd plagues in play (which is an auto scoop aside from NO -> symbiote to prog unless you have several lords in play already). I would say max have 3 in your deck but I think I will run 2 instead with cutting the forest walk lord to 2 (from 3) and a fyndhorn/llanowar for those 2. They are worth testing though.

[Hawdes]

Ermm lets get this back on topic shall we?. Now in regards to the following new card:



The card is good but as a single lord for 1GG it is the weakest of all. And atleast I do not run the full 12 lords. However it is quite flexible with the potential to ge around 2 engeneerd plagues in play (which is an auto scoop aside from NO -> symbiote to prog unless you have several lords in play already). I would say max have 3 in your deck but I think I will run 2 instead with cutting the forest walk lord to 2 (from 3) and a fyndhorn/llanowar for those 2. They are worth testing though.

I would much rather have Elvish Champion than this new guy... Forestwalk does in fact impact the gameplay against many decks.
I'm with the group that thinks that this guy will be a win more creature, since when you already pack XYZ mana, you should be winning.
Cutting Llanowars/Fyndhorns will just hurt the deck more to add these "lords" because we rely on hitting three or four mana quick, and get our elf count up. Playing a 1/1 Elf "possible lord" instead of a 1/1 Elf that will give you mana sources is a no brainer.
He will not be played in Legacy I think, due to the fact that he doesn't have abilities that brings him over the top, like Elvish Archdruid (Priest of Titania on steroids).

The only flexslots in my list as we speak are Wren Run's Packmaster, and I still think that I much rather pump x mana in him, making wolves with deathtouch than casting a big elf with multikicker... As Wren Run's Packmaster will always be a big 5/5 Elf for cmc 4, and not as situational as the new lord.

[Waikiki]

I would play him as a 1 off tutor instead of mirror entity

[Hawdes]

I would play him as a 1 off tutor instead of mirror entity

Yes ofc, if you go that route... I've dropped Survival from the list ages ago in favour of more explosive starts and due to a great amount of spell snare in my meta. The only "tutors" I run in the deck at the moment are Natural Orders, targeting Progenitus first, then the Packmaster, or packmaster first if I have huge amounts of mana and have to race big dudes...
I've previously discussed pros and cons of SotF in the deck so I won't bring it up again.
The only thing I would like to suggest is that you guys should try out Relic of Progenitus maindeck if you have a Loam/Dredge/etc heavy meta, and to the decks that splash green for goyfs (a lot of decks), you have a maindeck answer to the big 4/5 for 2 mana creatures which lets your llanowars win against them.
It has done remarkable things in those matchups when you have them maindeck. It can steal some other matchups aswell...
I like them more over Cabal Therapy which I ran before.

[Tacosnape]

Comparing this thing to Mirror Entity seems more wrong than comparing it to some of the other Elf Lords. Certainly it's not better than Archdruid, but I could see this thing stealing a slot or two from Elvish Champion, leaving enough Champions to Survival for should you need the Forestwalk worse than the ability to multilord* your guys.

This guy can also just be Lords 13-16, in case you want that for any reason.

(Multilord (v)- 1. To give all of a tribe +1/+1 multiple times, often through the use of a creature. Ex. I'd have won had that stupid Joraga Warcaller not multilorded your guys out of Firespout range.)

[Esper3k]

Nice thing about this guy is that he protects against Pyroclasm much better than the other lords do.

If you play him at 5 mana, all your guys are safe from Pyroclasm by himself (as opposed to needing 2 lords out). If you somehow manage to cast him at 7, all your guys are safe from Firespout now.

[Azania]

He is flexible and allows himself and others to live trough pyroclasms and multiple EPlagues which is good in my book. But for that you need atleast 5 mana which is not much a problem. I do not play packmaster in my list since a while and comparing those 2 is somewhat wrong, many lists (including mine) have dropped that card.

I have 8 1mana elves so cutting those to 7 and going from 3 to 2 forestwalk guys is doable to allow 2 of this new elf to take 2 spots in the list.

In regards to the meta game, if you see a share of decks with mutavaults and engeneerd plague, firesprout and pyroclasm then this guys is an answer. You do not want your champions in play against enemy mutavaults, and those are carefull play against other elf decks.

Elvish Champion is already considered the worst of the 3 lords I find it fair to be compared to this new elf. It is either forest walk or a 'lfexible lord power(s)'. Of course there is such a thing as metagame to look at. For lord count 9~12 I think 2 of each would be fair in general but this requires testing. I will be proxy'ing this card soon to test though.

[Hawdes]

I just want to post some of my experience from last night testing...
Relic of Progenitus was a house against a wide variety of decks, I'm happy with the inclusion even if I don't hit goyfs all day, it's always good to remove cards in graveyards (I'm looking at you ANT, Tombstalker ******s etc.).

The main issue I ran into though was against a random deadguy deck running Gatekeepers maindeck, Vampire Nighthawk, Snuffout, Goyfs, Jitte etc. and it got really hard after sideboard.
The deck packed Perish, Engineered Plague in the sideboard... How on earth can you handle a deck like that with elves? I did board in my Woodfall Primus (he was better than Progenitus in this matchup actually... due to all sac removal and spot removal targeting everything else), and ofc the Krosan Grips came in against the Engineered Plagues and Jittes aswell some of my own Jittes. Even then, this matchup was pretty wicked for me to handle. Any ideas?

I also tested a great deal against various types of Zoo, which in the end just stomped the deck to the ground. The only way to beat Zoo is to resolve a fast NO into Progenitus, or it seems that way. Any thoughts on how to improve this matchup?
I did board in my Absolute Laws here aswell my jittes, even with that it felt like a wicked hard matchup...

[Kuma]

Wirewood Herald + Caller of the Claw and Cabal Therapy offer good protection against Perish.

We run 12 lords. Engineered Plague is a joke.

Umezawa's Jitte out of the sideboard would be a house in this matchup since it makes every elf scary and can remove his Jittes.

If you can play Progenitus with another elf out to protect against Edicts, you shouldn't have a problem.