[DTW] Bant Survival

[Waikiki]

Indeed,

atm I considder dropping spell snare for more beaters and replacing a savannah for an additional forest.

[Jak]

On top of adding more non-blue non-creature cards to the deck. Even in last tournament report by Waikiki there was a situation in which he needed to topdeck a creature to win the game.

Natural Order would go in place of Spell Snare. My decklist also has been running a high creature count of 23.

[chokin]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...900#post416900


__18 Land
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah

__20
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Squee
1 Rafiq of Many
1 Wonder
1 Kira
1 Ethersworn Canonist

__22 Other Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder

__SB
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spell Pierce
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Faerie Macabre

It's about a week late for posting this, but I placed first on Jan 2nd with this list at a 36 man event.

Before you start criticizing too heavily, I suggest you read the thoughts coming from the link posted above. Yes, the tribal match was atrocious. Yes, I want more RWM. Kira/Canonist is for the hard lock against spot removal. Yes, Spell Snare could be cut to 3. And I only have 1 Savannah and 3 Tundra, so I couldn't change that, but ideally, I would have swapped the numbers.

One of the biggest shocks to me in playing this deck is that RWM is the best creature in the deck. It made the aggro match winnable in many cases, so I want to probably drop one Spell Snare for the third Monk minimum.

Rafiq is good here from what I can see. Makes RWM hit harder, which makes your life total or board position better. You can recur him with Jenny (Genesis) if he dies to Bolt.

Adding NOPro (I'm glad that the nickname is catching on :P) is possible. It helps a few matchups and doesn't afraid of anything. It also allows for you to get singletons without a Survival in play in a pinch.

The changes I've wanted to make with the deck are:
-1 Spell Snare
+1 RWM

SB:
-1 Crypt
-2 Needle
+2 Path to Exile
+1 RWM/Magus of the Moat

Feedback is appreciated, but in this post I summed up some of the things said in my link.

[Wargoos]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...900#post416900


__18 Land
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah

__20
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Squee
1 Rafiq of Many
1 Wonder
1 Kira
1 Ethersworn Canonist

__22 Other Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder

__SB
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spell Pierce
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Faerie Macabre

It's about a week late for posting this, but I placed first on Jan 2nd with this list at a 36 man event.

Before you start criticizing too heavily, I suggest you read the thoughts coming from the link posted above. Yes, the tribal match was atrocious. Yes, I want more RWM. Kira/Canonist is for the hard lock against spot removal. Yes, Spell Snare could be cut to 3. And I only have 1 Savannah and 3 Tundra, so I couldn't change that, but ideally, I would have swapped the numbers.

One of the biggest shocks to me in playing this deck is that RWM is the best creature in the deck. It made the aggro match winnable in many cases, so I want to probably drop one Spell Snare for the third Monk minimum.

Rafiq is good here from what I can see. Makes RWM hit harder, which makes your life total or board position better. You can recur him with Jenny (Genesis) if he dies to Bolt.

Adding NOPro (I'm glad that the nickname is catching on :P) is possible. It helps a few matchups and doesn't afraid of anything. It also allows for you to get singletons without a Survival in play in a pinch.

The changes I've wanted to make with the deck are:
-1 Spell Snare
+1 RWM

SB:
-1 Crypt
-2 Needle
+2 Path to Exile
+1 RWM/Magus of the Moat

Feedback is appreciated, but in this post I summed up some of the things said in my link.

Gratz for the finish, I really dig your list but aren't that convinced on the Kira/Canonist combo. It look's like Kira already shuts down the removal by himself and they still have to trade 2 for 1 against you which lets Canonist appear a bit of a overkill. But thats just an impression I have to test it first.

@ Thread:
Did some1 test Loaming Shaman in the sb?
I loved that thing in RGBSA.

[MSC]

Did some1 test Loaming Shaman in the sb?
I loved that thing in RGBSA.

I tested a little, what to play as additional Graveyard-Hate. I think a Jötun Grunt between Main and Side helps a lot.
I play him now in the Wonder Slot Main, cause Wonder doesn't help me very often and there are a lot of Matchups, where you want Maindeck Gravehate..

[Waikiki]

@Chokin

Plz try to get those savannah you only need 2
Try:

2 forest
1 island
1 plains
8 fetch
4 trop
2 savannah

@No faeries, Did you test the spellstutters and could explain why you chose not to run these. I love the stp protection they give me and the ability to counter nasty things like top or even start a chain with survival out.

@NOpro, What matchup does it actually improve? I considdered adding it to the sb but it seemed not to do enough at the time.

@grave hate md, I would opt to run a jotun grunt instead of the genesis. It can recur your own creatures to survival back out again and can annoy the grave of your opponent. Myself have chosen to not run any grave hate since we only see like 2 dredge players a tournament and I dont feel I've got a bad mu against loam decks.

@Kira/canon, I feel kira can be strong in a very spotremoval meta with alot of rock decks and burn decks. I just think adding canon with it is a little overkill. He is only good on its own vs combo but not any other matchup. So without survival he will just be a grizzle in bear in alot of times. I'd prefer teeg over him since that is also a bomb vs landstill and stax decks. Also a single meddling mage can be devastating vs decks that need a loam to keep up their engine. I understand with canon + kira they can never spotremoval you again. But which deck can have soo many removal a survival player cant keep up dumping out creatures when they have to 2for1 first to kill smt (kira out). I'd simply remove canon from the md. (faeries could even counter the 2nd bolt/stp)


Reference: my sb

SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk (aggro,burn,when I need more beaters)
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip (CB and if I see humility)
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg (landstill,stax,combo)
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis (control)
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile (aggro/tribal)
SB: 1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger (tempo decks)
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce (controll/combo)
SB: 1 [PS] Meddling Mage (loam and when needed more beaters)
SB: 1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner (spot removal and when I need more beaters also kira+teeg wins the LS matchup)

[chokin]

Yes, I said somewhere in the Report that I only had 1 Savannah and 3 Tundra. I would have preferred 3 Savannah, 1 Tundra.

Fairies. I'd be willing to try again. I just didn't like them.

NOPro. It's mediocre. It was an idea.

I don't like MD grave hate. If I were to run any, it would be Loaming Shaman. I like that he's big and resets shit. Macabre is another good option, but is only really strong with Jenny. I like Jenny main. It's just harder to keep up with that upkeep effect without Rofellos backing you up.

Kira/Canonist - I like Kira. I'm still on the fence about Canonist. Canonist against aggro when you have a Survival down means that you're able to just drop better quality creatures. Against control, it's a double edged sword. Combo it rapes. I think Kira is enough though for removal protection.

I think the board needs 3 Grips. I know there's MD artifact/enchantment hate but 3 is where I feel comfortable when Humility comes into play. Having 2 feels too random even with cantrips and Survival filter. Personal preference.

I really wanna squeeze in Iona/LR combo.

[Kuma]

I tested a little, what to play as additional Graveyard-Hate. I think a Jötun Grunt between Main and Side helps a lot.

I've been looking for an extra piece of graveyard hate for my sideboard, and Jotun Grunt seems excellent.

@No faeries, Did you test the spellstutters and could explain why you chose not to run these. I love the stp protection they give me and the ability to counter nasty things like top or even start a chain with survival out.

I know you're not talking to me, but I've found Spellstutter Sprites to be awful in most matchups. StP protection seems unnecessary when you can just use Survival to get more creatures. Kira and Loyal Retainers/Iona also make this redundant.

Countering SDT is a pipe dream. Maybe if they find their first Top in the midgame, but most Tops are played turn one before Sprite can be played.

As for starting a chain with Survival out, this has worked better in theory than in practice. Most decks don't run many relevant one-CCs, which forces you to try to start a chain with a Vendilion Clique or to waste a Spellstutter Sprite so you can counter two-CCs.

Even if you can start a chain, that's incredibly mana intensive in a mana hungry deck. In order to play a relevant threat and have a Spellstutter Sprite to protect it, you need to have a minimum of four mana. Most of the time you'll need five or six since you'll have to use Survival to find the Sprites and/or the threat.

Right now I'm running one Sprite in the main and two in the board, and I'm probably going to cut them all-together.

My play experience with Spellstutter Sprite has been that they usually sit in my hand uncast while my opponent plays things that cost 2+ mana.

@@NOpro, What matchup does it actually improve? I considdered adding it to the sb but it seemed not to do enough at the time.

In limited testing, NOPro wasn't worth it. Either I already had the game pretty well locked up with Survival, or I didn't have countermagic to protect it. It also hurts the blue card count and adds another dead draw to a deck full of dead draws. Then again, it was amazing in a few games and gives the deck even more must counter cards. Further testing may be warranted.

[MSC]

Right now I'm running one Sprite in the main and two in the board, and I'm probably going to cut them all-together.

My play experience with Spellstutter Sprite has been that they usually sit in my hand uncast while my opponent plays things that cost 2+ mana.

Just my thoughts. I have cut Spellstutter-Sprites and Spell-Snares a while back and never looked back. Going more aggro (and having more good Creatures to do so) has won me more games than having the abillity to counter that one Sword or Goyf...

[Waikiki]

I keep considdering cutting the faeries but each time I run the deck in a tournament they win me the game.

Countering stp is pretty relevent when survival is not out. also it counters almost anything in the zoo matchup.

I do agree I would like to make the deck more aggressive.

I hope the new set will give us some more goodies to work with.

[Wargoos]

While grunt is a neat card for an aggro-variant of this deck (no sprites etc.) I do not consider it to be a graveyard hate card.
Against dredge the drawback takes often too long and led dredge will just play and leave the grunt unconsidered.
At least for me grunt did not work against dredge.

[Kuma]

I keep considdering cutting the faeries but each time I run the deck in a tournament they win me the game.

Your most recent tournament report shows you winning exactly zero games with Spellstutter Sprite, unless you count that game where you played one in response to Standstill. I don't count that game because your opponent was at four, you were at eighteen, he had only the Standstill in hand, and any other creature would have been just as good or better.

Countering stp is pretty relevent when survival is not out.

It's a tempo play, sure, but you need tons of mana in order to play a threat and immidiately protect it. It's impossible to play threats early and have the mana to protect them. By the mid-game you probably have Survival anyway and you can just get more threats.

also it counters almost anything in the zoo matchup.

True. Zoo is one of the few matchups in which I've been pleased with Spellstutter Sprite.

I do agree I would like to make the deck more aggressive.

Running Spellstutter Sprite seems antithetical to this.

I hope the new set will give us some more goodies to work with.

I think our manabase can support Leatherback Baloth. It might be worth running a few, although I doubt I'd ever search for one with Survival. I'll definitely test the Baloth once it comes out.

[Waikiki]

Your most recent tournament report shows you winning exactly zero games with Spellstutter Sprite, unless you count that game where you played one in response to Standstill. I don't count that game because your opponent was at four, you were at eighteen, he had only the Standstill in hand, and any other creature would have been just as good or better.

That play won me the game since I won with the cards standstill gave me else i'd die. Real slowly

It's a tempo play, sure, but you need tons of mana in order to play a threat and immidiately protect it. It's impossible to play threats early and have the mana to protect them. By the mid-game you probably have Survival anyway and you can just get more threats.

This is true if they allready have the stp. Not if they need cantrips to find it.

Running Spellstutter Sprite seems antithetical to this.

I considder spell snare to be weaker then the faeries. So i'd cut those first. I wont more creature/spell ratio. Also stutter poo's on duress from ant players and can stop a chant aswell.

I think our manabase can support Leatherback Baloth. It might be worth running a few, although I doubt I'd ever search for one with Survival. I'll definitely test the Baloth once it comes out.

That guy doesn't impress me that much. Cards I wanted to try out as of now, mongoose, cosi's trickster and mother of runes. The mongoose have allready been tried and I found them to be pretty strong. But I rather have something that could keep the blue count high.

[godryk]

After all that discusion on Mother of the Runes in the Format Discussion forum, I started seeing her as a valid inclusion in this deck. IDK, I feel like testing her, could be a nice way toimporve our tribal matchups while as not being terrible against anything winning with creature damage.

I've also considered Magus of the Moat (as MSC suggested) after testing today against my brother's Elves. It could be decent too against Merfolks, but a 0/3 body just sucks against Zoo and Sligh decks. Maybe Silent Arbiter? IDK, I need to play more games post board and see how much I can get from PtE and maybe Jitte.

[Kuma]

That play won me the game since I won with the cards standstill gave me else i'd die. Real slowly

I have to mull down to 5 :(. He keeps his opening 7. I manage to get some aggro on the board and he did not expect me to play blue since I didn't fetch anything blue yet. So he falls EE @2 against me which I spell snare. I get him down to 4 and he finally recovers and sweep my board. He drops standstill and I respond with spellstutter sprite (he is at 4 and im at 18). Our hands are both empty now. He does have an active jace tho. But then again he has to break his own standstill and I draw into survival. He resolves elspeth and I draw into spell snare. I resolve survival but no creatures I kick his jace -1 and I pass. He then activates his jace for +2. I draw a creature and tutor up the iona / loyal combo. He tries to counter but I had the snare.

Any creature wins you the game there, provided his board was empty as you imply it was. Since his hand was empty after playing Standstill, that implies his hand was empty on your turn. A threshed Werebear, really anything with four or more power, would have won you the game there.

You: Werebear

Him: Draw Standstill

You: Swing four

Apparently his next card was Elspeth which means any evasive creature also wins you the game. Heck, Grizzly Bears plus a topdecked Path to Exile wins you the game.

My point is even if Spellstutter Sprite won you that game, it's because it was an evasive creature, and not because of any quality unique to Spellstutter Sprite. Unless you can clarify the game situation for me...

But even if you can clear things up, if you need to be that specific to show Spellstutter Sprite's advantages, it's probably an incredibly situational card that shouldn't be more than one slot in the 75.

This is true if they allready have the stp. Not if they need cantrips to find it.

So you're always going to keep 2-3 mana open in a mana hungry deck in case they play one-CC removal?

I considder spell snare to be weaker then the faeries. So i'd cut those first. I wont more creature/spell ratio. Also stutter poo's on duress from ant players and can stop a chant aswell.

I don't like Spell Snare either, and I don't run it in my 75. And yes, Spellstutter Sprite is relevant in the ANT matchup, but aside from Zoo, ANT, and a couple of tier two decks like Dreadstill, Burn, and Sligh, Spellstutter Sprite is the worst card(s) in your deck.

That guy doesn't impress me that much.

I'm not totally thrilled with Leatherback Baloth either, but he does give us a couple more big beaters to draw if we don't get Survival active.

Cards I wanted to try out as of now, mongoose, cosi's trickster and mother of runes. The mongoose have allready been tried and I found them to be pretty strong. But I rather have something that could keep the blue count high.

I think a lot of Nimble Mongoose's usefulness is subsumed by Kira and Iona. Cosi's Trickster only gets bigger when your opponent shuffles, which makes him mediocre without Merfolk lords to pump him. We have Rhox War Monk's life gain to win the damage race, evasion from Wonder, Vendilion Clique, Trygon Predator, and Iona, and Kira and Survival to keep creatures on the board. That makes Mother of Runes fairly redundant.

I've also considered Magus of the Moat (as MSC suggested) after testing today against my brother's Elves. It could be decent too against Merfolks, but a 0/3 body just sucks against Zoo and Sligh decks. Maybe Silent Arbiter? IDK, I need to play more games post board and see how much I can get from PtE and maybe Jitte.

I run a package of 1 Silent Arbiter, 3 Propaganda for the tribal matchups. Unfortunately, I haven't run into any since I started running them, so I can't be sure how effective they are. However, running Propaganda in my Pro-Bant with CounterTop deck greatly improved the Goblins matchup, so there's hope.

[chokin]

Propaganda against Goblins can be REBd. Ghostly Prison is in color and just as good. Just can't be pitched to Force. I don't know how big of a deal that is though.

If they're R or Rb Goblins, they have no outs to GP because they need green or white to deal with it.

[MrShine]

The people playing Goblins in my area frequently have anarchy out of the board, which, given the RWMs, is likely to come in... It is probably less likely that one would run into it than REB but there are answers to the Prison nonetheless. In the Zoo matchup it doesnt really matter, what with Pridemages runing around everywhere so I guess it just depends on whether you want to avoid more common hate or have cards to pitch to FOW.

[Kuma]

The Goblin lists in my area run Anarchy over REB, too. Since we're skirting the bare minimum number of blue cards to support Force of Will, I'd rather run Propaganda and take my chances with blasts.

[chokin]

It was just a note. Forgot about Anarchy though. That pushes Propaganda up then since my logic was that it got -1 for REB/Pyro and +1 for Force. GP was -1 for non-pitch but +1 for immunity to REB/Pyro.

Anarchy makes it get another -1 in my books.

I figured for the people who are running Spellstutter, they have a better blue count for Force than say...my list.

Also, Waikiki, you say that countering STP is what's winning you games...wouldn't Kira give you the same effect as a preemptive thing? It takes 2 removal spells to remove Kira, then another to hit the other creature. That's essentially 3 STPs needed to remove the threat for 1UU vs 2 for 1U. But it doesn't stop there really. SS might have a tough time dealing with Snuff Out. Kira doesn't care what the spell costs. It cares that it's spot removal.

I'm not closing the door on SS yet though, so please don't get that impression. It's just my list felt aggressive, not reactive. Kinda like how Merfolk uses their mana effectively and then backs their stuff up with free counters. I just don't like leaving much mana open if I can help it.

[Jak]

You guys are forgetting that Sprite is amazing against combo. It does a lit more for the deck than just stop removal.