[SCD] Grim Monolith

[Jon Stewart]

DCI, please read through this thread. 99% of the posters here have expressed support for unbanning Grim Monolith and the overwhelming majority believe the card would have a very positive impact on the format by increasing the curve of playable cards, and opening up the format to decks like Wildfire and Tooth and Nail. You almost never see the level of agreement among legacy players for something as you see about unbanning Grim Monolith.

I think that ban/unban discussions are a lot more organized and productive when they're limited to one specific card at a time. Otherwise, the thread will inevitably turn into a clusterfuck once people start talking about 30 different cards at once.

I feel that most of the other credible candidates for unbanning have largely been discussed to death in other threads. But I have yet to see much discussion center on the possible unbanning of Grim Monolith.

I honestly believe that Grim Monolith is a fine candidate for unbanning. And given it's recent unbanning in Vintage, unbanning it in Legacy seems like a logical next step.

The only decks that I could see it helping are Belcher and WelderMUD. Both decks that have utterly failed to make a significant impact on the format as of yet. And in both those decks, Grim Monolith would be used exactly as intended, not as a card that breaks the decks in half. And it's questionable how much help the card would provide either deck. Belcher's vulnerability centers on how easy to disrupt it's win conditions are, and Grim Monolith does little to fix this.

WelderMUD is just as well off playing Mox Diamond as it is playing Grim Monolith. And if WelderMUD wished to play both cards, then it would have to devote an absurd 36 cards to mana (24 Lands + 4 Mox Diamond + 4 Grim Monolith + 4 Metalworker) possibly alongside 3-4 Crucible, something that I don't think it would be willing to do.

At best, I see Grim Monolith functioning as a bargain alternative to Mox Diamond in WelderMUD decks for people who don't want to spend the cash to acquire Mox Diamond or who don't wish to devote 24 slots to lands just to support Mox Diamond. That seems like a legitimate use and I see no good reason why Grim Monolith continues to remain on the banned list.

What do you guys think?

[Clark Kant]

On second thought, I agree with you. Unbanning it makes sense.

None of the current top tier decks would benefit from Grim Monolith, but it just might bring a few other decks closer to viability, which in turn makes the format as a whole more diverse.

[Nidd]

Well, ever thought about applications in MU Stax builds? Featuring Tezzeret and the new Jace as winconditions?
I think that kind of archetype would benefit most from the unbanning of Monolith.

However, I don't think these decks would be too strong. Unbanning it is safe, I think. However, the DCI didn't unban it yet.
Maybe it's a good candidate for the next update...

[Otter]

Let me preface this by saying that I agree with the basic premise that Monolith is likely safe.

And given it's recent unbanning in Vintage, unbanning it in Legacy seems like a logical next step.

It's this logic that I take issue with. Though they share an almost identical cardpool, Legacy and Vintage are practically oil and water. Vintage is warped around a couple of non-creature cards and ways to abuse them, namely Mana Drain, Yawgmoth's Will, and Mishra's Workshop. Legacy is at the complete opposite end of the spectrum, though it is a bit more diverse than Vintage, it is largely decks vying for superiority on the ground in various Goyf wars and what have you. The similarities between the formats pretty much stop at the best color being blue and the ubiquity of Force of Will. I mean really, Vintage can't handle Thirst for Knowledge. Aside from Faerie Stompy and U-Stax, would any deck even consider playing TfK in Legacy? We're pretty comfortable with Brainstorm and Ponder here too, while they're wildly dangerous in Vintage, what with finding your deck's copy of Time Vault or Yawgmoth's Will meaning the end of the game and all.

Now I realize that all of these differences I've been pointing out lend themselves to saying that artifacts are a lot better in Vintage, so if Monolith hasn't shaken Vintage up, it's probably fine to unban it for legacy. I think that's probably correct and I wouldn't argue against it, but I think it's really important to specify the argument down to that level. That something is not being a problem in Vintage does not by default mean the next logical step is to unban it in Legacy.

Perhaps that's exactly what you meant, but either way I make no apologies for nitpicking it. I think it's very important that both formats get their banlists looked at from completely separate perspectives, the very few cards that do separate them make a tremendous difference.

[Clark Kant]

I took it to read that just by the fact that Wizards thought about and tested Grim Monolith enough to unban it in one format, it's logical that they're open to testing it and unbanning it in another.

Well, ever thought about applications in MU Stax builds? Featuring Tezzeret and the new Jace as winconditions?
I think that kind of archetype would benefit most from the unbanning of Monolith.

However, I don't think these decks would be too strong. Unbanning it is safe, I think. However, the DCI didn't unban it yet.
Maybe it's a good candidate for the next update...

Yeah, that could work, though I would be more interested in building something aggressive like this...

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
4x Crystal Vein

4x Metalworker
4x Juggernaut
4x Su-Chi
4x Razormane Masticore
2x Karn, Silver Golem
2x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Sphere of Resistence
4x Trinisphere
4x Grim Monolith

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Powder Keg
SB: 3 Defense Grid

Same as you, I'm not sure if such a deck would even be viable in legacy, but it seems like it could be a lot of fun. I honestly think about the only impact unbanning Grim Monolith would have on the format would be to make a lot of casual players very happy.

[Otter]

I took it to read that just by the fact that Wizards thought about and tested Grim Monolith enough to unban it in one format, it's logical that they're open to testing it and considering it as a possible candidate for unbanning in another.

Perhaps, but given that we still don't have Land Tax, our base assumption should probably be that the DCI is downright retarded.

Anyways, on topic, to pull up a decklist from the time that Monolith was actually useful:

Kai's Wildfire
4 Covetous Dragon
1 Karn, Silver Golem
3 Masticore
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Fire Diamond
4 Grim Monolith
2 Mishra's Helix
4 Temporal Aperture
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key
4 Wildfire
2 Worn Powerstone

3 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
13 Mountain

SIDEBOARD
2 Boil
3 Earthquake
1 Mishra's Helix
1 Phyrexian Processor
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Shattering Pulse
4 Spellshock

One of the key players in this deck is Voltaic Key. Its ability to circumvent the massive untap cost is pretty important to making Monolith something more than a brown Ritual that either nets one now or three a turn later. Without Key, if whatever you do with the Monolith gets countered or killed, you'll end up wasting massive amounts of tempo if you want to use it again.

[Clark Kant]

Yes Voltaic Key does combo with Grim Monolith and Metalworker to net even more mana. But to what end exactly.

Then again, looking at the above list that I posted, there is no good reason why I can't just play that deck right now, replacing 4 Grim Monolith with 4 Mox Diamond.

Given that, I think the only way Grim Monolith would have a true impact is indeed to create a deck that consistently needs a great deal of mana, and plays Voltaic Key alongside Metalworker and possibly Goblin Welder.

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
4x Crystal Vein

4x Mox Diamond
4x Voltaic Key
4x Grim Monolith
4x Metalworker

4x Razormane Masticore
4x Platinum Angel
4x Sundering Titan

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere

Possibly Crucible of Worlds, Staff of Domination, and Sphere of Resistence have a role in such a deck as well. I can't fathom any other legacy strategies that have any use for such obscene amounts of colorless mana. Most existing strategies I can think of that use these cards only need a slight amount of additional colorless mana, which is precisely what Mox Diamond, Grim Monolith and Metalworker offer with or without Voltaic Key.

But even ignoring the horrid synergy between Voltaic Key and Chalice of the Void, this above build seems far less consistent than the alternatives. The deck absolutely needs you to draw and successfully resolve either a Voltaic Key or a Metalworker to even be playable. And even then, it remains far slower than every other combo deck in the format.

[BreathWeapon]

Not only do I like Grim Monolith, but I think Grim Monolith is good for the format. It's not just an accelerant, but a mana battery, so the format could try and evaluate big mana decks like Wildfire or Tooth and Nail. Anything that pushes the format's mana curve above 3 is probably a worthy unbanning, if for no other reason just to diversify the format a little.

[Illissius]

Yeah, Monolith isn't just a colorless Desperate Ritual. It can be -2 one turn and +3 the next. So if Welder MUD or whatever has expensive cards it might well prefer it to Diamonds. And yes, it would be very nice to get some big mana decks back in the format -- Wildfire, Tooth, Death Cloud, or something.

Personally, I'm hoping it could resurrect Accelerated Blue. So I fully approve.

[Gheizen64]

Not only do I like Grim Monolith, but I think Grim Monolith is good for the format. It's not just an accelerant, but a mana battery, so the format could try and evaluate big mana decks like Wildfire or Tooth and Nail. Anything that pushes the format's mana curve above 3 is probably a worthy unbanning, if for no other reason just to diversify the format a little.

This. As a ritual, monolith is hardly a threat. Desperate ritual, rite of flame, etc are all better as rituals. Monolith would be used just as a battery, and i could play my old Wildfire deck ftw.

[Jon Stewart]

So far, everyone agrees! That just seems so strange, in a banned list discussion thread of all things. Is there any way we could pass this message on to Wizards?

Not only do I like Grim Monolith, but I think Grim Monolith is good for the format. It's not just an accelerant, but a mana battery, so the format could try and evaluate big mana decks like Wildfire or Tooth and Nail. Anything that pushes the format's mana curve above 3 is probably a worthy unbanning, if for no other reason just to diversify the format a little.

I forgot about Wildfire, Tooth and Nail, Death Cloud, Covetous Dragon and Accelerated Blue. The thought of those decks possibly seeing play in legacy someday (even as tier 2-3 decks) makes me giddy for some reason. Next thing you know, we'll be talking about Sneak Attack and Defense of the Heart.

[Pltnmngl]

I'm pretty sure the only think holding it back is that it's on the reserved list.

For a moment, I thought it would give combo more nuts opportunities, but color-less mana doesn't sound too bad.

[Julian23]

What it would really do is promote a deck that was back then called "Accelerated Blue", in case you remember.

[Jon Stewart]

I'm pretty sure the only think holding it back is that it's on the reserved list.

What does that have to do with anything. Being on the reserved list has no bearing of whether a card is banned. Tons of legacy staples are on the reserved list. Everything from Force of Will to Phyrexian Negator is on the reserved list.

Hell, Berserk is on the reserved list and they managed to find a round about loop hole to reprint that.

The reserved list is the most arcane, pointless and nonsensical list in MTG's history, and the sooner the DCI does away with it, the better. But that's for another topic.

[overseer1234]

I would love to see it come of the list, we'd be able to give MUD a decent chance in legacy (not that I'm unhappy with the metalworker we recently got to play with), or even make my wildfire build at least half decent.


(Also,I just want to keep the list as short as possible, that's why I also think hermit, dragon and tax should come off, (the first two especially if the format becomes boring again, so they can shake things up a bit...) but that's another kind of discussion)

[Jon Stewart]

I would love to see Acclerated Blue make a comeback. It's such a cool concept.

But I see basically very little chance of that happening. All the Accelerated Blue staples (Power Sink, Rewind, Wash Out, Opportunity) for the most part suck these days and are so easy to counter and those cards haven't really been improved upon. I suppose Treachery isn't horrible but even that is pretty meh when compared to stuff like Sower of Temptation.

I would love to see it come of the list, we'd be able to give MUD a decent chance in legacy (not that I'm unhappy with the metalworker we recently got to play with), or even make my wildfire build at least half decent.


(Also,I just want to keep the list as short as possible...)

Same here. And it's not as if there is any chance whatsoever of WelderMUD dominating legacy, considering the deck has absolutely no way to counter spells, no protection and outright dies to everything from Serenity to Aura of Silence.

[Illissius]

But I see basically very little chance of that happening. All the Accelerated Blue staples (Power Sink, Rewind, Wash Out, Opportunity) for the most part suck these days and are so easy to counter and those cards haven't really been improved upon. I suppose Treachery isn't horrible but even that is pretty meh when compared to stuff like Sower of Temptation.

Vedalken Shackles, Fact or Fiction, Chalice of the Void, Sphinx of Jwar Isle

[Jon Stewart]

Vedalken Shackles, Fact or Fiction, Chalice of the Void, Sphinx of Jwar Isle

Good point. Though I'm not sure about Shackles. Acclerated Blue seems like it would really want to play Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors, which don't exactly have great synergy with Shackles considering that you need to get 5 Islands onto the board to be able to deal with legacy staples like Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker.

Chalice of the Void seems like it would have horrible synergy with a lot of important blue staples like Brainstorm, Ponder, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare not to mention all the 2cc stuff. But it's probably worth running anyways. It would be more helpful if you could post even a tier 3 list that demonstrates a modern legacy take on the archeatype.

It definately seems possible to put together an Accelerated Blue deck, but I have serious doubts that the deck would perform adequately (which I guess would put it right along side strategies like Wild Fire, Tooth and Nail, and Death Cloud.)

[deadlock]

I a completly agree with the unbanning of Monolith, especially what Breath Weapon said. Also it would be another take on the Ban Tarmo discussion, to introduce (a) card(s), from which the current Goyf decks do not profit.

The biggest question for me is, would Grim power something like (examples!)

8 Tomb / City
4 Grim
4 Trini
4 Chalice
+x

or more something like
x Voltaic Key
x Senseis(?) - good with key
and other 1 mana spells, e.g. Welder.

Where as the first template is more explosive, the second one is more controlish with long term mana advantage. The problem would be what disruption to run besides FoW (given a blue shell).
I would love accelerated blue..

[Illissius]

Good point. Though I'm not sure about Shackles. Acclerated Blue seems like it would really want to play Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors, which don't exactly have great synergy with Shackles considering that you need to get 5 Islands onto the board to be able to deal with legacy staples like Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker.

Maybe Tomb, but not so much City. I've done some experimenting with Accelerated Blue builds before and City can be very annoying when you want to ramp up mana for something. And both of them can be very annoying when your opponent plays Wastelands. A modern build would run 4 Grims, maybe some Tombs, and then plain old Islands.

Chalice of the Void seems like it would have horrible synergy with a lot of important blue staples like Brainstorm, Ponder, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare not to mention all the 2cc stuff. But it's probably worth running anyways. It would be more helpful if you could post even a tier 3 list that demonstrates a modern legacy take on the archeatype.

See the link in my sig. Note that I haven't played so much as a game with that list so it's as likely as not to be horrible; at this point it's just an idea. (All of the threes in particular are mainly the product of indecision.)