[Archetype] CounterTop

[Meddling Pimp]

I played Wall of Roots in my build last night and REALLY liked it. In 3 matches, I landed a turn 3 NO twice (running 4 Noble Hierarch and 2 Wall of Roots). In other games, it was a great blocker and mana fixer.

[Irish_Mafia]

So, I played Pro Bant w/ top and I have been having trouble with Landstill. I drew with one and lost to one. At one point I got up to 45 and he was down to 6 and he somehow came out of it, to win. Any advice?

[BackDr0p]

Landstill is a deck which tries and can answer everything. Unfortunately for us, all of our threats are easily answered by 4 cards: Wrath of God, Nevinyrral's Disk, Humility and Engineered Explosives. Two of which, are unanimously run in the majority of list floating around. There is no way you can play the control role in the matchup unless you manage to assemble Counterbalance + Top and protect it. Sadly, that is something easier said than done.

The only thing I can suggest is running additional Pithing Needles somewhere in your 75. It helps the match up to a certain extent. Shutting off Factories, Explosives (pre-emptively) and Plainswalkers.

To win, you need to resolve an early NO and protect him. Otherwise, you don't really stand a chance.

Another thing, your life total in magic means nothing, board position does. Remember that.

[psu42]

I never thought of Wall of Roots over Wall of Blossoms, but that sounds pretty solid actually. Helps to speed up the deck a bit into Progenitus and also would help in the Merfolk matchup when trying to get around Daze and Cursecatcher.

I think you are running to much weird stuff in the sideboard. 1 Llawan seems kind of random and stuff like EE is never really needed.

[Irish_Mafia]

Landstill is a deck which tries and can answer everything. Unfortunately for us, all of our threats are easily answered by 4 cards: Wrath of God, Nevinyrral's Disk, Humility and Engineered Explosives. Two of which, are unanimously run in the majority of list floating around. There is no way you can play the control role in the matchup unless you manage to assemble Counterbalance + Top and protect it. Sadly, that is something easier said than done.

The only thing I can suggest is running additional Pithing Needles somewhere in your 75. It helps the match up to a certain extent. Shutting off Factories, Explosives (pre-emptively) and Plainswalkers.

To win, you need to resolve an early NO and protect him. Otherwise, you don't really stand a chance.

Another thing, your life total in magic means nothing, board position does. Remember that.

I agree , i tried to protect my counter top, but its really difficult. I usually sided them out for teegs (trying to act aggro like) and it helped me quite a bit. I was shutting off alot of their outs and win cons.

And I know my life total means nothing, im just saying i had great board position as I had 2 RWM in play. He seemed to have infinite removal (granted the deck plays a shit ton).

If Landstill seems to be played alot in my meta I may put a 4th NO in the side to try and get one out quick.


Also on the wall of roots discussion, this seems interesting. I never thought of wall of roots but yes, it may replace my Jitte's

[Enigma]

I'll try to summerize the idea behind each cards in sideboard:

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Thwart
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 2 Pithing Needle

2 Grip/1 Grudge/1 Trygon/2 EE split:
This split comes from the fact that we were in need of faster answers to Chalice against Aggro Loam than just Grips. Having Enchantress won the last SCG 5K in LA, Stax the one in Philly and Pro Bant having a large success meant we were in need of Trygon. We previously had 2 Trygons/2 Grips but decided to go +1 Grudge because it's 2 turn faster than Trygon. EE helped sooo much against Aggro Loam when we tested it that we kept it in. I have to say there might have 1 too much card dedicated to Artifacts/Enchantements here. Probably -1 Grudge might be an ok choice.

2 Tormods/2 Relic:
I wanted to have 5 grave hate, but with the addition of 2 EE we went down to 4.

2 Thwart:
This card is FOW #5-6 against Landstill, Mirror and Combo (not as good in this MU, but better than a lot of thing MD). In testing this card won me a lot of games backing my Natural Order or countering NO, Wrath or Humility while PRO is on board.

1 Llawan:
1 more answer to Natural Order. It's also our only answer to inkwell and a very good card against Dream Halls and Merfolks.

2 Needle:
These were 2 Sower for the mirror, but we decided we had already a lot of good cards against the mirror and still had difficulties against Wasteland and Vial. These slots could be something different, though, they made me win a game against Merfolk last saturday.

I must say my sideboard with supreme blue has always been focused on Aggro-Control/Control, more than aggro. On a more aggro-ish metagame, I wouldn't run that SB (prolly add some hydroblasts or paths to exile).


P-M

[Kanabo]

can anyone tell me how this ugb list is? its kinda like my homebrew.

UGB Countertop

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
2 Pernicious Deed

4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

SB:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Extirpate

[Argen]

can anyone tell me how this ugb list is? its kinda like my homebrew.

UGB Countertop

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Sansei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
2 Pernicious Deed

4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

SB:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Extirpate

You're a dog to merfolk and any deck running wastelands. You probably want to go down to about 6 fetchs and run at least 20 lands. You're not tempo thresh and you need lands to be activating top for counterbalance. Main deck deeds seem awkward when they blow up everything you play.

[Misplayer]

I agree , i tried to protect my counter top, but its really difficult. I usually sided them out for teegs (trying to act aggro like) and it helped me quite a bit. I was shutting off alot of their outs and win cons.

This. But if you keep CounterTop in, then you have the ability to lock the Landstill player out entirely. With CounterTop and Teeg on the board, the Landstill player desperately needs to find Vindicate to get out of that jam (and hope you don't have a 3 on top).

Also, CounterTop shuts off Landstill's targetted removal, cantrips and some of their counterspells. That kind of virtual card advantage is huge against, Landstill because they need to play many, many cards to win. Also, slow-roll your threats. Let them go 1-for-1 with Wrath. Save Force for EE@2, Elspeth(!!) or Vindicate if you can't flip a 3CC. If you can float a 4CC on top then and flip it even once, they'll start to question whether they can resolve anything through CBTop and how high they'll have to pay EE to get it through.

I have a pretty good idea of how to beat landstill because I've lost with it a fair amount. Staring down an opposing Couterbalance/Top on the board is not fun unless I can resolve Elspeth or EE away the Counterbalance. Guessing what CMC is not in the top 3 with EE isn't fun either.

[Irish_Mafia]

This. But if you keep CounterTop in, then you have the ability to lock the Landstill player out entirely. With CounterTop and Teeg on the board, the Landstill player desperately needs to find Vindicate to get out of that jam (and hope you don't have a 3 on top).

Also, CounterTop shuts off Landstill's targetted removal, cantrips and some of their counterspells. That kind of virtual card advantage is huge against, Landstill because they need to play many, many cards to win. Also, slow-roll your threats. Let them go 1-for-1 with Wrath. Save Force for EE@2, Elspeth(!!) or Vindicate if you can't flip a 3CC. If you can float a 4CC on top then and flip it even once, they'll start to question whether they can resolve anything through CBTop and how high they'll have to pay EE to get it through.

I have a pretty good idea of how to beat landstill because I've lost with it a fair amount. Staring down an opposing Couterbalance/Top on the board is not fun unless I can resolve Elspeth or EE away the Counterbalance. Guessing what CMC is not in the top 3 with EE isn't fun either.

Alright, Ill give it a try. Thanks for the input. I guess I really only have to stall long enough to resolve a NO. Then Ill win anyway

[Kuma]

Spell Pierce is pretty awesome against Landstill too.

[Kanabo]

The 2 MD Deeds are for Aggro, I can drop CB+TOP and if that doesn't work to stop them, I can just blow it all up with deed. I found that it is somewhat of am all around good card against our bad matchups.

[Enigma]

Speaking of Supreme Blue w/ NO, I found the MD pretty much set, except from the fact we are in need of a card that can manages artifacts and enchantements.

Depending on the metagame, Backdr0p and me mentionned the possibility to switch some MD RMW to the board for 1/2/3 copies of Trygon predators.

How zoo can still beat us?

But as NY has a more Zoo oriented meta, we were in need of the RWM MD. Though, the fact we both lost to the deck probably means that our MU wasn't so great as we were thinking. CB, Goyf, Wall of Roots, Firespout and RWM all felt sooo good against them that we lacked testing too much against the deck. The games we won against it last saturday always had a Progenitus involved, and the game we were trying to fight fairly, it didn't work properly. For example: A game I was at 6 lifes with 2 Goyfs and a RWM in play, passing the turn against an empty board and a guy with 1 card in hand. I was smelling the recover so much, he drew chain lightning, which was a good combination with Bolt for my doom.

Sideboard ajustement in regards of this

That makes me think we were in need of an additionnal weapon against Zoo, mostly from the sideboard. But there is two restrictions to that plan. 1. Everything looks good in the MD, what we would side out? 2. What to take out from SB.

The latter seems easier to resolve as we can reduce the artif/enchant hate from our board from 6 to 4. Probably something in the lines of 2 Grip/2 Trygon. Needles can also be changed to more direct weapons.

List of cards I would consider to try winning by the "fair way"

Path to exile
Hydroblast
Lightning Helix
Ajani Vengeant

List of cards I would consider to try winning with the combo

1-3 Mystical Tutor

The card search for Firespout or Natural Order, two cards that are gamebreaking against aggro.

I feel that the cards I would enter to fight the fair war have similar effects that the one I would side out. Daze is probably the only exception, which would be the card I would side out first. Though, I feel that searching for the combo might work. The restriction is that the zoo player would then fire away our creature that we are looking to sacrifice for the natural order.

P-M

[Skeggi]

can anyone tell me how this ugb list is? its kinda like my homebrew.

Here are some things that I noticed:

You run Pernicious Deed in a deck with 18 lands, of which 4 are Wastelands. Pernicous Deed is quite mana demanding, if you must run Pernicious Deed, you want to up your land count to at least 20, probably 22 if you insist on running Wastelands. Further, Pernicious Deed in CounterTop is something I consider bad tech. It's The Fear does it, I know, but that's what I consider a mediocre deck.

Stifle is a tempo card, CounterTop isn't a tempo deck. It doesn't match well. Usually you want to drop your counterbalance asap, not making it possible to leave a mana open for Stifle. It's bad synergy.

In any UGB list I'd expect at least 2 Sower of Temptation. It's a powerful tool once you assemble CounterTop.

All in all, I'm generally not happy with Dark Confidant in a CounterTop deck, although it seems like a must, because it has synergy with Sensei's Divining Top, it prevents you from effectively 'floating' 2 cards with useful cmc on top of your deck (for instance cmc2 and 3); making it easier to break the softlock. Because Dark Confidant isn't that good in CounterTop, Thoughtseize is only 'ok' and Pernicious Deed wipes your own board, I'm not a big fan of the black splash. It's more worthwhile going white. Has better removal anyway.

How zoo can still beat us?

I haven't had this problem. I simply board in Pithing Needle for Qasali Pridemage (perhaps some Spell Snares and extra Path to Exiles). Next to that you just make sure your Rhox War Monk lives, assemble CounterTop and you should be fine.

On a sidenote: the NOPRO combo is clunky and a resolved NO doesn't exactly mean you win. I find Elspeth to be a much more gracious addition.

[wmagzoo7]

Enigma I think that Hydroblast is probably your best bet. While Helix and Ajani Vengeant as well as Path are all good, the late game burn is usually what gets you. Hydroblast also can help out against the various red decks you will face and want answers against. Mystical if you ask me doesn't seem to be the way to go about it because not only does it forecast your plan of action changing their play (Killing your guys if you go get Natural Order) but it also skips a draw which is something you don't want to do against a deck where you are constantly trying to keep your head above water so to speak.

[Shugyosha]

@Enigma:

Yes I would also suggest Blasts or Path and switch Daze on the draw and Wall of Roots on the play. Cutting the wall seems not logical at first but you board in removal to deal with a threat instead of playing a more expensive wall that deals with an attacker. Against Zoo you need to clear his board and then swing, removal helps you more than wall here as you also cannot use the mana ability as often as in other matches.

[psu42]

Zoo is really popular up here.

I run 2 BEBs and 2 Hydroblasts--cutting dazes and walls.

It seems like a lot of hate for one deck, but it is essential to winning the matchup in the first place, yet alone beating one of the most popular and powerful decks in the room.

[Enigma]

It's really underplayed here, in Montreal, so I never thought the MU could be anyhow hard. You guys are right about adding Hydroblasts. I just hate dedicating so much slots to generic aggro when there's a full ton of decks to face in legacy. That's the reason I'm playing Supreme blue over Pro Bant. I'll try removing slots from the board to add 3-4 blasts.

P-M

[psu42]

A sideboard is dedicated to beating the more difficult matches and metagaming...I wouldn't create just a generic sideboard. Just go into a tournament making a sideboard for just that tournament.

[wmagzoo7]

So I guess the question is what you can cut from the board to fit in some Hydro/ Blue Elemental Blasts. I guess you could probably cut the Ancient Grudge as well as the 2 Needles if need be but besides that I'm not sure what you would remove. Also, Enigma do you really need 4 each of Counterbalance and Sensei's Top or could one or the other be cut back to 3? I remember in other Counterbalance Top decks I have seen there were less than 4 which seems like it could be a way of fitting in Trygon Predators or some other Artifact/ Enchantment removal in the main.