top 8ed the vestal dual for dual (88 ppl).
Came in 6th after losing in top to 8 cards of dredge hate coming in out of the board.
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomeba
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ancestor’s Chosen
4 Bridge from From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise
sb
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Realm Razer
4 Leyline of the void
Might change the board to
4 unmask
4 leyline
3 chain of vapor/ ray of revalation
4 ancient grudge
Yesterday I participated in a 54 men GP Madrid trial with led less dredge and split the finals.
My list is:
4 Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
2 Dread Return
SB:
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Firestorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mindbreak Trap
The sideboard has 4 Ancient Grudge and some Firestorms because they are essential and I expected a lot of combo so I put 8 zero mana counters vs combo in my sideboard. This isn't that bad as postboard you have got 20 blue cards in your deck which is quite reliable.
My matchups were:
Faeriestompy 2-0
I win the roll, mull to 6 and play a Tribe which he forces. On his turn he drops a Chalice at one with an Ancient Tomb. I play a Coliseum and play a Breakthrough for 2 mana putting 1 GGT and some Ichorids in my graveyard. He play an Island and invokes a Mulldrifter on his turn. On my turn I activate my Coliseum in my Upkeep, hit more dredgers with my troll, dredge for my draw step and make a bunch of tokens and a big troll - he scoops.
SB: +4 Ancient Grudge, -4 Breakthrough
We both mulligan to 6 and he makes a first turn Chalice at 1 again with a City of Traitors. I play land go and on his turn he taps his city for mana, plays an Island and a Serendib Efreet. On my turn I grudge his Chalice and he doesn’t find another mana source than his lone island in the next 2 turns so I kill him quickly.
Aggro Loam 1-2
First game he doesn't do anything and scoops after my second turn after he had already taken a mulligan and I got a broken opener.
+4 Ancient Grudge, -1 Golgari Thug, -2 Ichorid, -1 Cabal Therapy
I am not sure if this is correct but my reasoning behind this is that I can't grind it out slowly against Aggro Loam but rather I got to be a real combo deck and thus I don't need that many Ichorids. Breakthrough can't be taken out in this matchup or Terravore and friends will eat you alive if you give them that much time. With 2 less Ichorids I also think that 1 Thug can be removed.
I mull to 6 into: 2x Careful Study, 2x Cephalid Coliseum, Stinkweed Imp, Ancient Grudge.
He plays Land, Mox, Loam, Crypt go. I draw something useless and play my first Study without finding a land to activate my Grudge and discard Grudge + Moeba or so. He plays a Knight of the Reliquary on his turn. I play another careful Study, find a land and Grudge his crypt. He taps 2x Taiga for red mana and uses his Knight to sacrifice one of them and gets a Plateau to play a Seismic Assault. On my turn I play a Tribe I drew with my Careful Studys, dump my hand and activate Coliseum. I dredge nothing of relevance and Assault kills me.
G3. I mull to 5, he keeps his 7. I have a Tribe, he has the crypt. I start to slow dredge and he eventually crypts me. However I am unlucky and on the dredge where I get my first Grudge I also hit 3 of my 4 Moebas and he crypts me before I get them. From there on it is a hard battle between a Knight of the Reliquary, a Goyf and a bunch of Zombie tokens and some Ichorid, however he finds an Assault and kills me with it in his last extra turn.
2-0 Eva Green with BLoodghast and Dark Confidant (or something like that)
Game 1 he does nothing and scoops quickly.
Game 2 I knew that he probably has Leyline of the Void in his Sideboard and I have no solution. So I boarded in my Firestorms.
He mulled to 6 and I keep my pretty nice opener. He starts with 2x Leyline and play 2 Mishras Factories and hits me with one while I beat down with 2 Tireless Tribe, a Putrid Imp and a Stinkweed Imp. Eventually he finds a Black mana and plays a Confidant. I hit him down to 10 with my guys and play a Breakthrough for 4 mana and find a Firestorm with it. He reveals a Smother with his Confidant and falls to 8. He drops a Goyf and on my turn I attack him again with my 2 Imps to 6. He reveals a Land and plays a Bloodghast and smothers my Stinkweed Imp. I draw, Firestorm for 4, kill his dudes and attack with my guys for the win.
Goblins 2-0
G1 he gets a first turn Lackey, I play a Putrid Imp. He plays a Stingscourger and bounces my I discard some Dredgers and his Lackey hits me and puts a Goblin Chieftain into play. I dredge, replay my Imp, discard some cards, play a Careful Study and get 2 Narcomoebas, 2 Bridges and 3 Therapies. I therapy his hand away and get 6 Zombie Tokens. On his turn his Stingscourger dies and removes my Bridges and he attacks with some guys which I block. I am left with some zombies and 2 Ichorids in my GY now and he doesn't draw any Ringleader, Matron or Siege Gang Commander for 3 turns while I dredge into new Bridges and Ichorids which eventually kill him.
I bring in 4 Ancient Grudge and 4 Firestorm but don't remember what exactly I took out. Definitely -4 Breakthrough and something else.
Game 2 he gets a Lackey and I get an Imp. On his turn 2 he gets a Skirk Prospector and a Relic of Progenitus. I discard a Troll on my upkeep, he tries to remove it and I discard something useless and remove that instead. My Troll dredges me into a Grudge immediately and I kill his Relic with it. He sacs his Prospector and uses the Relic. He drops a Warren Investigator and plays an Aether Vial with a Wasteland. I dredge, Careful Study, dredge more and pass with 3 Ichorids and 3 Bridges in the graveyard but no Moebas in play. On his turn he doesn't find a ways to kill his own dudes and attacks with lackey and investigator but has nothing to bring into play but a Goblin Warchief and another Investigator. On my turn I get back my 3 Ichorids, dredge into a Narcomoeba and a Dread Return and make 15 Zombie Tokens, a Troll and therapy him but he had just lands and an Aether Vial left in his hand and scoops.
TES 2-1
Game 1 he mulls to 5, I therapy for Dark Ritual after he opens with Gemstone Mine, Ponder and hit 2. He dies soon after that to my Zombie tokens.
+4 Force of Will, +4 Mindbreak Trap, -4 Tireless Tribe, -1 Golgari Thug, -2 Ichorid, -1 Dread Return
He kills me on his first turn after I mulled to 5 and got a hand of 2 Lands, Dredger, Putrid Imp, Force of Will but no card to pitch.
G3 I keep my 7 consisting of 2x FOW, 2x Mindbreak Trap, Breakthrough, Troll, Therapy. I go for DDD and in my first draw before I can start to Dredge I draw another Blue card. He tries to go off on turn 3 but hits 2 of my 4 counters he didn't expect.
I see that I have got a nice opponent score and my opponent for round 6 is Marius Hausmann (Wasteland on Mtgthesource) playing Ur Dreadstill. We figure out that we can draw and come in the top 8 as 7th and 8th.
In the top 8 I get to play against Christoph Alsheimer (Nemavera)
He wins the roll and starts with a Brainstorm. I mulled to 6 and get a quick opener. I get to Therapy him but in the end he can Chant me with kicker before I can kill him. On his turn he already had played out an LED before and draws a Dark Ritual for his turn. He plays his Dark Ritual, Cracks his LED and draws his Ad Nauseam with his top.
Draw a bunch of cards, play a bunch of cards, he wins.
SB: -4 Tireless Tribe, -2 Ichorid, -2 Dread Return, -1 Thug, -2 Putrid Imp, +8 Counter, +3 Firestorm
I mulligan to 4 into Troll, FoW, Trap, Land. I FoW a Xantid Swarm and he tries to go off without any pressure on turn 4. He goes for Doomsday and I Trap his Meditate. He scoops.
G3 I get a nice opening hand with 2 Lands, 2 Therapys, Fow, Moeba, Troll. I therapy him and start to dredge. He Mystical Tutors for Infernal Tutor with a LED in play and a Dark Ritual in hand but doesn't go for it. I dredge into more therapys and empty his hand and kill him.
He told me that he is going to write a report himself so I am not sure anymore how those games exactly went and you can read it there.
Top 4 Merfolk
Game 1 I win the roll and mull to 5 but get a nice opening hand consisting of Gemstone Mine, Tireless Tribe, GGT, 2x Careful Study. My first turn Tribe resolves and he drops an Island. I dredge and try to Careful Study but he dazes. On his turn he plays his Island again and passes. I Dredge and play my 2nd Careful Study which he also Dazes. He plays out his Island again and passes. I get back some Ichorids and dredge into a Bridge. I therapy him for Lord of Atlantis and hit 2, Therapy for Merrow Reejerey and get 2 Zombies. He has no ressources left and dies to many zombies.
SB: +4 Ancient Grudge, +3 Firestorm, -4 Breakthrough, -2 Cabal Therapy, -1 Golgari Thug
We both mulligan to 6 and he opens with Cursecatcher and Crypt. I play a Tireless Tribe which resolves. He just has a Mutavault and passes. I discard a dredger and start to dredge and drop a Putrid Imp and another Tribe. He doesn't have any play for his turn and passes back to me. I dredge more and get a Moeba out and hit him again with my flying creatures. When he is down to 10 he finally gets his 3rd land, Crypts me and plays a Merrow Reejerey. I hit 2 more Narcomoebas with my next dredge and he trys to race me but my flying beaters are faster that his merfolks while Tireless Tribe defends my life total.
Finals: I make a price split with Marius Hausmann and we both get 3 byes for Madrid. Moreover we get 4 Force of Will and a BB Savannah.
If you make a report, please let me know, I would be very interested in reading it.Originally Posted by jimirynk
Did you ever side in your ray of relevation or your leyline ?
Have you tried duress/thoughtseize before considering Unmask ? Removing a black card was often screwing my hand.
-Team Laval !-
Congrats on your result Muradin, especially since you run such a 'pure' list without any other DR targets etc and 15 lands.
The 8 cards dedicated to Combo were nice, glad it helped you win that matchup.
Frankie Mach 10th Place SCG 5K Dallas/Fort Worth
Creatures
1 Flame-kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
Enchantments
4 Bridge From Below
Legendary Creatures
1 Iona, Shield Of Emeria
Sorceries
4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City Of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
Sideboard:
1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Chain Of Vapor
2 Firestorm
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Nix
3 Ravenous Trap
Maindeck deep analysis without LEDs and only 12 land? Am i missing something? How does he ever get two mana to cast it or is it just to speed up a slow-dredge?
Needs more goyfs.
Well, 2 mana is doable but pretty hard to reach without LED. I wouldn't advise anyone to use it in a non-LED list.
But I really like his Nix tech in the Sideboard... Anyone ever tested it ?
It hits crypt, force, ravenous trap, engineered explosives, LED,daze..
But you better pay off for the daze ;)
Last edited by Raptor; 01-11-2010 at 02:17 PM.
-Team Laval !-
Doesn't spell pierce do the same thing but also hits relic?
I don't like taking the defensive roll in such an aggressive deck if you have a mana up why not cast a duress or thought-seize?
If nix could counter faerie macabre I'd be all for it because that card blew me out at vestal..
@Raptor
I'll get to a report soon just realized that me and you play the same 2 decks Ichorid and Canadian thresh.
Well, spell pierce is worst turn 3+, your opponents will often have the mana to pay because their hate spell cost 0 or 1 mana, so going with Nix could be a good idea. Plus, if I see them bringing relic or I think they are running it, I'll bring grudge instead.(I'll probally playtest Nix and spell pierce tonight against Merfolk and Supreme blue)
I know that going defensive is often not the best strategy and that's why I don't know if I should try in SB Duress/thoughtseize, Pierce, Nix or Unmask. I might try the Unmask because I hate going T1 Duress to get my only land wastelanded.
-Team Laval !-
Current side board:
3-4 hand hate (unmask/though-seize/duress)
3-4 artifact hate(ancient grudge/null rod/pithing needle/ignot chewer)
3-4 grave yard hate (leyline/faerie macabre/ravenous trap/tormod's crypt)
3-4 answers to leyline (CoV/wispmare/ray of revelation)
I'll adjust my numbers according to the meta of the next torn I play at.
In my meta I expect Zoo, Landstill, Countertop, Fearies, Chalice aggro. goblins, maybe some combo deck and lots of progenitus deck.
As for now my SB is :
4x Ancient grudge
3x Firestorm
1x Sadistic Hypnotist
3x Duress
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Ancestor's chosen
I will probally switch to something like this
4x Ancient Grudge
3x Chain of Vapor
3x Duress or Unmask
2x Firestorm
1x Sadistic Hypnotist
1x Ancestor's chosen
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
I've seen lots of traps in the past tournament, so that's why I'm seriously considering Nix. I would probally do -2 Firestorm, -1 Chain of Vapor, -1 Grudge
for 4x Nix or maybe disrupt.
By the way, do you often side out Breakthrough ? I keep them kind of often because I love to explode after being hit by a crypt.
What do you usually side out?
Me : -1 Tireless Tribe, -1 Ichorid (if I'm not versus Countertop or Landstill), -1 Golgari thug, and after this, I start taking out my breakthrough.
-Team Laval !-
@Raptor
I side out 4x Breakthrough 95% of the games I play.
Current side board:
3-4 hand hate (unmask/though-seize/duress)
3-4 artifact hate(ancient grudge/null rod/pithing needle/ignot chewer)
3-4 grave yard hate (leyline/faerie macabre/ravenous trap/tormod's crypt)
3-4 answers to leyline (CoV/wispmare/ray of revelation)
0-4 combo hate (though-seize/chalice/unmask/duress/nix/force/spell pierce/mindbreak trap)
I have a question on sideboarding tactics.
I tend to overboard in g2 (not that often in g3, when I know opposing hate and I also start.)
What is the correct number of cards to take out to both improve our post-board game, but not simmultaneously cripple the deck? For a long time I thought (and it worked well) that something about 6-7 is the best number, as you take 4 Grudges (considering you'll see Crypt/Relic, not LotV) and yet some number of Chains to have more hate than they have Crypts. But sometimes I also take some random stuff (e.g. Blazing Archon that is really good against NQGw or NO-Thresh/Dreadstill decks with not many removal, but fast clock). so I sideboard eight cards. I always take out some Ichorids and Ghasts (if I am going to face the anti-grave cards, I don't wanna rely too much on my GY), Breakthrough (but not more, as I wanna "combo out" once I get rid of their hate), FKZ (namely in matchups where I have inevitability, but also if they can rfg my BfB and/or stall my Troll with chumpblockers - Goblins come to mind), sometimes a DReturn when I don't board in targets, one Narcomoeba and a Thug (just because I need space, not that it is great move to take out drdgers/free creatures), sometimes even a Bridge (if they really have too many outs for them - Affinity, mirror). In short - my blind sb tactics looks like this:
-1 Ichorid
-1 BGhast
-1 Breakthrough
-1 FKZ
-1 Moeba
-1 Thug
-1 DReturn
+4 Ancient Grudge
+3 Chain of Vapor
Is it reasonable?
Was this even a real Skeggi's hero?Lol. You're my hero.
I usually take out breakthrough, I would never board out Moebas, Bridges and Ichorids/Ghasts.
This is definitely too much, don't you feel that your doesn't function very fluidly. I suggest just putting in 4 Chain of Vapors game 2 vs blue for -3 breakthrough and probably a return or -2breakthrough, -1return -1target for anything not blue. Then exchange the chains for more specific answers game 3. The most I've boarded in my deck was I think, 7 = 4 Grudges, 2 Firestorms, and 1 Ancestor's Chosen vs Goblins. Taking out -1breakthrough, -1study, -1return, -1FKZ, -2tribes, 1therapy, but this includes match-up specific cards and not just answers, imo, 4 answers are enough especially with a very explosive build with the deck.
Why so serious?
I board 3 Grudges vs everything except MonoBlack Suicide or things like that.
NEVER take out Moeba/Ichorid/BFB since they are the way to bait a Crypt if youīre not hitting a Grudge that early. I nearly never side in Chain, just once in ~20 rounds of sanctioned play while Grudge went in 19/20 games.
With the LEDLess build I usually side BTīs and 1-2 DR Targets, then some Studys if neccecary.
DCI: 68 10 43 34
Unless I expect Leyline (UB Control, mono-black, anything with Deed), I simply board in three or four Ancient Grudges. Never board out Bridge or Narcomoeba. I usually start with -1 Thug, -1 Therapy, -1 Dread Return (my only target game one is GGT), -1 PImp/Tribe/Breakthrough/Careful Study.
Is there an effective way to play around Ravenous Trap? It's not so bad when you have a Tribe or Imp in play and dredge for the turn, but I lost a match this weekend to a game three RTrap when I went all in on Breakthrough against Zoo. Trap left me with one land in play, no cards in hand or graveyard, and a very lonely Tireless Tribe that ate a Chain Lightning.
InfoNinjas
Thanks for feedback, guys!
As I already stated, my reasoning for cutting the Ichos and BfB was like this: either I get my anti-hate and then I won from BT/Colliseum. Or I fail to draw my anti-hate, but as I don't rely on my GY that much, I can win on the backs of fast flying beats, Ghast or two and a few zombie tokens.
I'll try the recommended sb route.
Was this even a real Skeggi's hero?Lol. You're my hero
@Angry Troll: Seriously, donīt board out Pimp or Tribe. They are the key why we donīt loose to Relic/Crypt...
@Trap: I just played against a Faerie Deck on MWS which had 2 Crypts, 3 Traps and 2 Truths out of the board and I lost to double Trap+Crypt both games, the third piece always beeing topdecked. Usually we should be able to win through a trap if we know they have it. If your Opponent immediatly keeps his hand and then DON`T opens with a hatecard he will most likely have a Trap/Extirpate or slowroll another hatecard which happens rarely.
DCI: 68 10 43 34
Trap isn't that deadly do to the fact that you still have your dredger in your hand.
The best way to deal with this is to force them to use it with narco triggers/bghast triggers/ichorid triggers/ and therapy's going to your yard.
These cards/triggers will scare your opponent to use the hate before the hate becomes useless.
Your ichorids are sooooo good vs the trap do to them being trap proof(unless they have 4 mana up with double black) also if they trap you after you dredge they're still in play and will return back to your yard.
PLAY 4 ICHORIDS.
Even with your Bghast lists play 4 ichorids the hate is rough out there.
I'm ranting and exhausted.
pc
I cut Breakthrough exactly never. It's actually the best card against hate. Either you kill them on turn two and they never get a chance to draw hate, or you bounce or kill their hate card and kill them before they can draw another. Or you force them to Crypt you because you are working them with Bridges, and then you kill them the next turn.
Cabal Therapy beats Ravenous Trap.
I board out an Ichorid against most aggro decks because the 3/1 attacker isn't useful if you are losing, but being able to kickstart your Bridges is occasionally useful. Do other people cut Therapy, or what?
edit: sometimes I think about shaving a Tarnished Citadel but never do.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
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