Thanks for the responses. I haven't played a Tendrils list with Top in it, so I think that I am just misjudging the ability to find a Tutor, Wish, etc.
Well, I would play Island, play Top, use Top on my Upkeep and eventually crack a Fetch when I want to Brainstorm/shuffle.Originally Posted by GreenOne
What's better now?
In general it is better to draw your card, play Brainstorm, fetch and then SDT. You'll see 7 cards this way. With your play you see 6 if you reshuffle. If there's 2 on top that you like then you'll see 3.Well, I would play Island, play Top, use Top on my Upkeep and eventually crack a Fetch when I want to Brainstorm/shuffle.
What's better now?
I disagree. It depends on my matchup. If I'm playing against non-blue, I'd Brainstormto shuffle away the Chant. If I was playing against blue, my hand is already really strong and I'd rather wait for some moment where Brainstorm can actually improve my hand.
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
I'm not talking about the hand given in the example. I'm just talking in general. Overall it is better to do x than to do y.I disagree. It depends on my matchup. If I'm playing against non-blue, I'd Brainstormto shuffle away the Chant. If I was playing against blue, my hand is already really strong and I'd rather wait for some moment where Brainstorm can actually improve my hand.
But it's always dependant on matchups and starting hands as in how many dead cards.
Edit: Just checked the hand. It is indeed better to top during upkeep with that hand if it's against blue. It's better to draw and play Brainstorm if you need to go off quickly like against an agressive deck.
Jap's play Legacy too - All time favourite arguably best player in the world Tomoharu Saito won a 178 tourney with this 3-color ANT list:
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
Sideboard:
4 Dark Confidant
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Rebuild
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
I like the City of Traitors.. If in doubt regarding anything (not just magic but life in general) - just do what Tomoharu Saito does!
Hydroblast? Rebuild? He'd better play 2 Xantid Swarm off that slot. I respect the player because he's a powerhouse and all, but I've seen better ANT sbs.
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The only thing I can think off is Hydroblast as a permanent answer to Pyrostatic Pillar - but yea bounce does the same thing I guess.. Rebuild is for rare occations of chalice at 1 and 2? It can also add to storm count in some degree I guess.. I guess I like his SB of 1-offs since its alot of different answers to alot of different hate - but I am biased in every way possible cause I love him so much!
Isn't Thoughtseize an autoshock for AN?? Duress could fit better...
That list is already playing a full set of Duresses.
My bad! I notice, now, that chant / silence were changed, in the sae proportion by duress / thoughseize, considering Pauwels' list.
how do you feel with that change?
I'm being addressed by my last name now? :pconsidering Pauwels' list.
The first benefit that I see is that it cuts a color which gives you more stability against Stifle + Wasteland.
The other one is that discard effects are better against CB based decks than chant effects.
The obvious downsides are that you cant make him discard a counter and then go for an Ill-Gotten Gains loop. This means that you have to go through a lot of Ad Nauseams when playing against Blue decks. He plays a 3rd Chrome Mox due to that I guess. But then running a second Ad Nauseam as well? That doesn't seem correct.
Come ON, it is Saito, he is a better deckbuilder than you, and he won a 178 man tourney. Stop critizising his list.
I hate this fucking behaviour like "ooo, he's a pro and so his list is perfect, don't even try to discuss a single card of it". Does being a professional player mean that he can't make any errors in deckbuidling? No sir.
For example, if you would know ANT, you'd know that, as someone already said, that Hydroblast is good only against Pyrostatic Pillar. Magus of the Moon? He runs an Island and can make B easily off Moxes, petals (and the basic swamp he could put, being a 2-colours list, which he lacks instead). So it's basically a 1-card answer. Wouldn't it be better to make that slot, say, a Chain of Vapor, which is more flexible and can get rid of Gaddock Teeg and also of the other hatebears that list suffers terribly? Ah no, because he's a pro so I'm wrong and he's right!
I would remember that there's a possibility that Pro players have their lists borrowed by other friends who happen to be deckbuilders, and I think this is the case sine Saitou probably doesn't know Legacy as well as he knows Standard or Extended.
And even if he was, I would still trust more people like the expert ones on this thread, who test costantly all the possible configurations, pro-cons, consequences, bad MUs balancing-power of the cards they choose. Emidln, Bahamuth, Citanul, PF and others play Storm Combo from much, much time, more than the 1-time quickie Saitou probably had with this deck. And all of them won tournaments, despites not doing it for work.
So please stop with that trolling argument.
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A 178 tournament is not a trolling argument, and Saito being better than us is also not a trolling argument.
But what you said were certainly NO arguments, just one-liners that you think a certain card is bad. "Hydroblast? Rebuild? He'd better play 2 Xantid Swarm off that slot." How is that an argument? That is just a statement. Yeah, go and replace two cards with two other cards that do nothing similar. It really doesnt matter. Just play Xantid Swarm and ignore bouncing Chalice#1, Chalice#2, Trinisphere and Thorn of Amethyst all at the same time. Your Staxx opponent can't cast spells, right, and so you just combo? Was that what you were trying to communicate with replacin Rebuild with Swarm?
Maybe Pyroblast is argueable, but then argue instead of just saying something. And if you are at it, look at the 2 Goblin lists in the Top8, one which played Pillar. Maybe it was good metagaming by Saito and for your Meta Pyroblast isn't good? Just think for a few seconds before posting.
And if you really trust the guys you mentioned more than Saito, then you should make a reality check, it is like saying you trust your local Hold'em round for Holdem strategy more than durrrr or Ivey (or whatever game you play with whatever Stars it has).
Excuse me? I gave quite a good analysis why I think that a second Ad Nauseam is a bad choice. When you face a blue deck you want protection followed by a kill. Using discard as protection over chant effects forces you to go through Ad Nauseam as a win condition instead of the IGG-loop. So his deck needs to resolve Ad Nauseam then and it's build for it in general. 4 Cabal Ritual, 3 Chrome Mox. Most people don't run that anymore but he has to. But then electing to run a 2nd Ad Nauseam isn't good because it increases your own loss rate to it.But what you said were certainly NO arguments, just one-liners that you think a certain card is bad.
Several people won larger tournaments with better lists, despites not being pro players. I can think to that guy who won the last Ovinogeddon in Italy (370 players), with a very good list, a straight UBW ANT with 2 tops and red in sb for Pyroblasts.
But to me you're too slave to the iconic power of the pilot to see specifically in his deck.
I was trying to communicate the obvious thing that a good combo player should notice with this lists, i.e. the lack of Chants really do hurt against decks playing Top to hide counterspells, or multiple counters ala Tempo Threshold. Xantid would be a in-color, recursive Chant effect.
I bet every player with a minimum of experience in the deck would have got it.
Not you, as it seems.
About the artifact bouncing issue: he can run, instead of Rebuild which is quite slow and aggravates the cost of Ad Nauseam a lot (again, a thing everyone would notice), another Hurkyl's Recall. I don't find these decks to set Chalice at 2 very much against storm combo, if not in a very advanced position; Chalice at 1 is the first obvious choice, as it stops your cantrips and your Dark Rituals. Then it comes Chalice at 0 which breaks LEDs, Petals, Moxes. Of course Trinisphere is a must-remove.
Also keep in mind that against Stax, it's more difficult to reach 3 mana due to various Wastelands, Armageddons, and such. Of course it's equal if Trinisphere is on the field, but it doesn't always happen, and the Ad Nauseam issue persists.
He could have taken off those Dark Confidants, which are not that great in a combo sideboard. Mind discussing this? Go 3 pages before this and read the flamewar between Rico Suave and the rest of the guys.
Shouldn't it be Hydroblast?
Again, why not to run Chain of Vapor then? It can bounce PP so that you can go off the turn after, with the bonus of being awesome against Gaddock Teeg and such instead of having the powerful effect of countering a Lightning Bolt. Do you think that destroying and bouncing is so different with Storm Combo? The only real panorama when destroying is>>>> bouncing is against Counterbalance to me, when you are not sure than the turn after you'll manage to go off, due to all the counters a normal Countertop packs so there's a possibility you'll fizzle/be stopped and they'll bring CB down again.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote. I don't care if Saitou won a tournament with ANT, as he probably picked it up for that event only. These guys put up regular results from a lot of time, and this means a lot. If you want to play Saitou's list because you judge it to be the definitive AnT list, no one stops from doing it. When you'll get skullfucked by some decks because of the weakness of the deck, maybe you'll think again about it.
[/QUOTE]
Last edited by Piceli89; 01-17-2010 at 10:06 AM.
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I'm with Piceli and citanul on this one, Rebuild is not as good as you might expect. Hurkyl's Recall answers Stax and Stompy as good as Rebuild does. When he has a Chalice @ 2, why not opt for a Krosan Grip, which has the added bonus of destroying a SDT or a CB? The fact that K.Grip forces you to play G in is not an argument, as Xantid Swarm and/or Carpet of Flowers should be i your SB as well.
Being a pro or winning a tournament is by no means an argument to praise the list this person used. Those times I've seen pro's play Legacy (like at Worlds), they mostly played like shit. These people never look into Legacy at all, and the community over here has done a much better job at creating better lists that a pro will. I know for a fact that both mainboard and sideboard of that list are bad and it doesn't mean anything that the pilot is a pro or that the list won a tournament.
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
Yes, green calls that.
I would like to add that the list in itself is not bad at all, but to me needs some tweaks to fight bad MUs. Here's what I tried some minutes ago:
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [PT] Swamp (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [UG] Island
1 [A] Tropical Island
3 [A] Underground Sea
// Spells
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [LRW] Ponder
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [US] Duress
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River (?)
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [U] Tropical Island
The MD list resembles a lot the original one, with the exception of City of Traitors bring cut because I didn't like their drawback that much, and it's pretty much a Top-dependant hand in the opening hand. 1 more Ponder to speed up the deck a bit also, since it's DD-less.
I can accept running 2 AdN. You want to be the more fast possible with this build (especially against blue where you couldn't stand mid-late ame only with discard as protection), and Duress+TS fit for this; having 2 AdN increase the possibility of having it in the initial hand, goin Duress+Rituals and various mana-->Ad Nauseam. This is a doable thing in here, but imo not in the traditional UBw lists where having chants require you more mana and a bit more setup.
The sideboard has changed completely. I added the well-known Xantids to fight Faeries, Tempo Threshold, and opposing Stor Combos with Chants, against which this build is inferior. I added also a Pact of Negation to make life a bit easier against Tempo Thresh, even if I'm unsure about it.
The rest is canonic: bounce for artifacts, KGrips for CB. I also put an additional IGG to become sort of Fetchland Tendrils against those MUs where you'd side in lots of 3-cc, making Ad Nauseam really worse. Perhaps we could let a single AdN in against Stax, since they have no clock, but against Countertop lists is better to board the out.
I feel this list is ore explosive than normal AnT due to protection being on-colour with the acceleration, but I'm sure I'll miss Chants (and Doomsday even more).
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