[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[Raptor]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...d.php?p=420568

I just asked some questions that could be some use for some people.
I hope that it can help you.

[bum_man]

Is Bloodghast (in addition to Ichorid and Moeba) better in an LEDredge build, or a Tribe build? I have lots of questions about Ghast, but very few answers.

I haven't played LED Dredge but I don't think they can support bloodghasts. LED Dredge imo, don't have enough slots to play ghasts along ichorids and moebas. I've seen Ghasts in place of Ichorids in a few builds though. LED Dredge also has very low land count to consistently recur bloodghasts imo. Bloodghasts could possibly better than LED Dredge compared to ichorids since ghasts are better combo enablers, post-board games would be harder though since the aggro game is not that solid without ichorids. In any case, LED comboes are not completely taken out but only diluted nowadays especially against non-blue, bloodghast could work then, but its not an optimal choice compared to ichorids imho.
I don't play LEDs so I don't have an idea, but considering the deck design, Bloodghasts are definitely better in Non-LED builds. Non-LED deck design are better suited to use and abuse bloodghasts great potential.

The problem is that I've failed to DR anything versus these deck.
Versus merfolk, I didn't have the time to dredge into something relevant.
Versus goblins, Earwig Squad got my DR out if I was soon able to dread return or my DR targets.

Vs. Merfolk: I usually go 4 Grudge, 2 firestorms, and 1 Sadistic Hypnotist, for 3 breakthrough, 1 DR, 2 of my targets, and 1 tribe. Haven't tested this match-up for a long time so I don't really know how it is, back then, I remember my merfolk match-ups always going terrible by either a bad dredge or a well-timed counter on his part.
Vs. Gobs: Grudge and Chosen are enough. Haven't had trouble with gobs since you are faster than them even post-board. I just blow-up hate, darkblast fanatics, therapy away relevant cards like traps and combo-out before they could get me in the danger zone.

Well this thread is pretty divided in that some board out all breakthroughs, while others swear to keep them in for explosiveness. The other point of contention is when to bring in new DR targets, and when to drop the DR's + targets altogether. This probably hinges a lot on whether its game 2 or 3.

Breakthroughs only come out against blue, or that's what I do at least. I've never even thought about taking out DR + targets. I use targets like Chosen, Hypnotist, and Woodfall Primus against a number of match-ups and haven't experienced any trouble with them, the utility these targets add in place of FKZ's speed which you can't harness post-board in most cases are very crucial imo.

Anti-Dredge hate is so diverse with tormods, relic, trap, creatures-that-sacrifice, Gaddock Teeg, you risk both boarding in the wrong thing and/or diluting your deck so much you just dredge into junk. I know this was the reason ages ago some lists played Gargadon; to increase your threats as opposed to trying to out-tech the tech.

All this makes for one of the more complicated Legacy decks to board for IMO.

This is exactly why I always board-in chain of vapors game 2 against any opponent just to see what hate he/she brings in. The ability of be able to answer anything saves you the disappointment of knowing that you boarded-in the wrong answers.

Can anyone give me feedback on the below:

ANT: +4 Unmask, - 3 Tireless Tribe, -1 Eternal Witness

I think taking out a study is better than taking out Witness, since Witness also gives this deck speed by taking back breakthrough. I think Sage is better in this match-up since Witness often nets you a card but without mana to cast it in the same turn, this is crucial against a deck like ANT.

Merfolk: +3 Firestorm, +3 Ancient Grudge, -4 Breakthrough, -1 FKZ, -1 DR

You only play 3 Grudge? I highly encourage finding room for the 4th. Otherwise, it looks just about right. I play 2 firestorms because I only have space for 2 in my sb though, do you think its relevant enough to net another slot?

Goblins: +3 Firestorm, +3 Ancient Grudge, +1 Ancestor's Chosen, -4 Breakthrough, -1 FKZ, -1 Witness, -1 DR

I'd sb this a little differently: +4 Grudge, for 1 breakthrough, 1 study, 1 DR, 1 Sage. FKZ for Chosen. 2 tribes for 2 Firestorms.

Reasoning: i don't really want to lose the speed and explosiveness of the deck against a fast deck like Gobs so I wont take-out all my breakthroughs. Breakthrough also makes Chosen by dredging more cards into your gy. This is important especially without Sage. In most cases, I don't put-in firestorms anymore, but if i do, I'd usually take-out tribes, since you chose to either have a blocker for the threats or spot removal for the threat, either way, they could probably work.

Aggro Loam: I have no idea because half the lists run Leyline and the other half don't.

I board-in chains game 2 then change them as necessary.

@Iona: People usually say she's an auto-scoop but I beg to differ. Against gobs, they could easily race her given board position, or kill her with a weirding. merfolk usually have propaganda for her. In any case, both decks have vials. Unless you've supported Iona by taking out their vials I don't believe she won't be that game-breaking. Haven't tested her yet though, but do you guys think she could possibly be better than Chosen vs Gobs, or Hypnotist or Llawan vs merfolk?

Hmmm, they can't cast it in responce to you flipping DR, except if Narco's trigger is on the stack. I just want to be sure on the rule, do you pass priority after the draw, or do you go to main phase without letting your opponent having priority ?

After you draw the card, they get priority before going to your mainphase. In that case, the dredger would have already been in your hand.

Also, I have another important ruling question. If I have tribe in play and I play breakthrough. I then ask my opponent if it passes, he says that it passes. Do I have the right to discard a dredger, or I should have done before asking him if it passes?

When you pass priority to him/her and breakthrough is "good" you can no longer discard because no one gets priority until after breakthrough resolves. You should discard before playing the breakthrough, or discard before passing priority.

[SlopeeJ]

Why would you sb in 2 of anything especially firestorm? What are the chances of you drawing 1 of the 2 cards in your main 7? That seems bad to me, imo it should be at least a 3 of or something you can dredge into such as ancient grudge. Firestorm is just awesome vs aggro decks and can be good vs counters.

Also why would you sb out the tribes vs goblins/merfolk, he blocks all day and stalls them to give you time? I would sb out pimps before I took out tribes, you still have ghasts, thugs, imps for ichorid. I usually sb down to 1-2 thugs and take out breakthroughs. If they don't run wasteland I cut a land down to 14 and sometimes take out an ichorid

@Iona: People usually say she's an auto-scoop but I beg to differ. Against gobs, they could easily race her given board position, or kill her with a weirding. merfolk usually have propaganda for her. In any case, both decks have vials. Unless you've supported Iona by taking out their vials I don't believe she won't be that game-breaking. Haven't tested her yet though, but do you guys think she could possibly be better than Chosen vs Gobs, or Hypnotist or Llawan vs merfolk?

I think angel of despair and ancestor's chosen are the only dread return targets needed, maybe a flame-kin vs fast decks/combo. You tie up 1 board spot for Llawan? I run the angel main to destroy permanents game 1 that can stop me from winning and if there isn't anything g2 Ancestor's chosen comes in. Why is hypnotist needed vs Merfolk, would it do it do anything different then chosen or is it just win more?

[Raptor]

@Iona: People usually say she's an auto-scoop but I beg to differ. Against gobs, they could easily race her given board position, or kill her with a weirding. merfolk usually have propaganda for her. In any case, both decks have vials. Unless you've supported Iona by taking out their vials I don't believe she won't be that game-breaking. Haven't tested her yet though, but do you guys think she could possibly be better than Chosen vs Gobs, or Hypnotist or Llawan vs merfolk?



If you side in 3-4 grudge, you will most of the time have the grudge for the vial. So Iona is almost auto-scoop if it's returned early on and you have a token or two. I can't possibly talk if she's better then chosen because I run a split of 1/1 iona and ancestor's chosen. But remember that often only two attacks of iona are enough because you have ichorid and zombies to support her. Even if they manage to get around Iona, it's pretty hard for the to race you if they don't have board position because it stalls them so much.

I beleive Iona is way better then Hypnotist vs merfolk because it requires less support to work well and doesn't die to echoing truth. When you resolve a DR return vs merfolk, it's often late game because they are out of counters or hate, and they often won't have any hands, so hypnotist is not that good.

Llawan is better in lots of case, especially if they don't run echoing truth. The only problem with it is that it doesn't put as much pressure as Iona of them, but it stalls them like hell. I'll probally run Llawan in side so I would have it + Iona versus merfolk.

[BreathWeapon]

Iona > Hypnotist, you're not resolving Hypnotist unless you've Mind Twisted them already with Cabal Therapy, in which case a 7/7 Flyer that counters their top decks is better than a weak body that picks of the stragglers in their hand.

[AcidFiend]

I just saw this: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31745

That is almost the exact same maindeck I'm testing, though mine is:
-Firestorm, -1 DR, -2 Iona, +1 FKZ, +3 Tribe

Anyways reason I mention it is because of lack of City of Brass. What are peoples thoughts of City of Brass vs Gemstone Mine in Bloodghast builds? A few lists I've seen have CoB, and wondered if they had tested Gemstone and were unhappy with it.

So far I've only tested the other way; running City. While its great at what it does, you can take anywhere between 2-5 damage over a game (Coliseum doesn't help). While you're racing decks like Goblins & Zoo, that is something I'm keen to avoid.

[NecroYawgmoth]

City of Brass VS Gemstone Mine is easy to explain I think...

We are Dredge...

We don't do much with our mana...

...sometimes we play an Breakthrough; Therapy or an PImp or use CC, rarely we play an BG or Dredgers... We don't need mana very often, and we are often DDDing.

A land that can give rainbow mana only 3 times is very often enough for us. We don't need a permanent mana source that pings us, IMO

so I play Gemstone Mines, because they don't ping (and with 14 lands there is a chance to see a second land)


YawG

[AngryTroll]

City of Brass VS Gemstone Mine is easy to explain I think...
...
A land that can give rainbow mana only 3 times is very often enough for us. We don't need a permanent mana source that pings us, IMO

so I play Gemstone Mines, because they don't ping (and with 14 lands there is a chance to see a second land)

What list doesn't run both Cities and Mines? With a 15 land Bloodghast-less list, the manabase looks something like:
4 City
4 Mine
4 Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel
The Citadels is clearly the worst land.

With Bloodghasts, the manabase probably looks more like:
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Colisium
2 Dakmor Salvage
That's 16 land, which is probably about right, leaving some combination of six Cities and Mines. Feel free to run 4/2 or 3/3, but I don't think I'd run 4 Mine and 2 City.

Hardcasting Moebas, Thugs, Breakthrough for 1, Coliseum, Ancient Grudge, and Ray of Revelation all takes two lands in play. Although the damage from the Cities and Coliseums (and Citadels) adds up, you need to be able to cast the full set of 2cc cards, especially games two and three.

[NecroYawgmoth]

yeah, you're right, the damage adds up... 1 reason more to play Mines instead of Cities >.> [I always feel like hardcasting Thugs, Moebas, Ghasts, and all kind of crap in game 2, and ping myself down to 10 life instead of winning, lol]

Why play Citadels, if we have Paradises, lol

...Paradises are even better, if your first Turn PImp gets FoWed for example

...for rainbowmana I would play Mines, then Cities, then Paradises and neverever Citadels... in non BG Builds


wtf 16 lands in a BG-Build... what do you want to cut in the main?
LED-Dredge plays 11 Lands (12 after bording without LEDs)
established BG-Lists play 13-14 (maybe15), but wtf do you want with 16 lands (my Berserk Stompy plays 15, and most of the time I have 2 lands >.>) - there is no need in having on mass lands on hand)


YawG

[frogboy]

Citadel is actually the best land if it's your second land. I think City is not close the best land because it gives you more options going long.

[NQN]

I often found myself loving that City has Infinite (meaning maximum 19) activations which is awesome to play around Daze effects or to go into the Thug->Narco "chain". Preboard it doesn´t matter but postboard I´d never miss at least 3 Citys.

[jimirynk]

Blazing archon > Llawan vs. Merfolk..
I don't know why anyone would sleeve Llawan in their 75.

Blazing archon not only shuts down folk it flies over their heads.

Current sb:
4 Ancient grudge
4 Unmask
4 Leyline
3 CoV

@ bloodghast
I don't run the card because I feel that it doesn't improve your game2/3 as much as the mana base hurts all 3 of your game.
BUT if you feel that it does improve your boarded games has anyone thought about running them SB?

Just food for thought.

[AcidFiend]

I heard Llawan was tech vs. Dream Halls :p

[BreathWeapon]

@Bum

There's nothing better/worse about Bloodghast in LED Dredge compared to non-LED Dredge other than # of lands, IMO, Bloodghast may be better in LED Dredge than non-LED Dredge because the LED/DA chain Dredges into the Dakmor Salvages much, much faster.

[Fatestitcher]

trinket painter has been employing this so-called "tech" for ages

Llawan

[jimirynk]

trinket painter has been employing this so-called "tech" for ages

How is this post relevant?

[Aleksandr]

Llawan dies to the same StP/Echoing Truth as Archon does, she is much more vulnerable to burn/Incinerator, makes nothing against Goblins or mirror, is overall weak in NO->Progenitus matchup, does not stop 20/20 tokens and finally: looks retarded.

I vote for Blazing Archon

[jimirynk]

Bojuka Bog

Land Common
Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield tapped.
{T}: Add {B} to your mana pool.
When Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield, exile target player's graveyard.

Good game sir..
No way to hate this card except

Encroach B
Sorcery
Look at target player's hand and choose a nonbasic land card from it. That player discards that card.

Which isn't playable..

[JonBarber]

Bojuka Bog

Land Common
Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield tapped.
{T}: Add {B} to your mana pool.
When Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield, exile target player's graveyard.

Good game sir..
No way to hate this card except

Encroach B
Sorcery
Look at target player's hand and choose a nonbasic land card from it. That player discards that card.

Which isn't playable..

Wow... Wizards really doesn't like dredge. First rav trap, now this! >_<

[fyrisen]

Bojuka Bog

Land Common
Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield tapped.
{T}: Add {B} to your mana pool.
When Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield, exile target player's graveyard.

Good game sir..
No way to hate this card except

Encroach B
Sorcery
Look at target player's hand and choose a nonbasic land card from it. That player discards that card.

Which isn't playable..

What decks would pack it? Eva Green, The Rock, Depths junk? It's a Sorcery speed removal wich actually looks awesome at first glance. But actually ain't good at all. The fact that it comes into play tapped makes it uterlly useless.