Uhm, the main plan in that case is to tell them how stupid they are. I mean, seriously, why should they run such a narrow card in their board? Relic, Crypt and Leyline are all better than Trap against Loambased decks, against Reanimator and against Ichorid. There's no way that Traps are better. Relics are even good enough to combat some Goyfs.Originally Posted by pippo84
Uh, @Ancient Grudge: ALWAYS play 4, it's the most important SB card against the artifact GY hate. Also useful against EEs or Chalices.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
In regards to Joe_C's sideboard: I am very concerned at the lack of Chain of Vapor. This card is an indispensable part of the Dredge arsenal. The difference between 1 and 2 mana is enormous, when it comes to dealing with Leyline, Crypt, Relic, etc. Given that your deck probably runs 12-14 lands, like most other builds, you will not reliably have more than 1 land. This means that hardcasting a Grudge or Ray is an extremely inconsistent strategy. Yes, you can dredge into them conservatively (unless Leyline is in the picture), but even that is not the best plan. You could lose valuable cards even in a conservative dredge. Chain just seems like an automatic playset in all sideboards.
Similarly, I must question your use of Duress. Is it specifically to deal with Ravenous Trap (as you suggest in your post)? I cannot think of any threat that Duress will get rid of that Therapy/Hypnotist does not handle equally well. Moreover, unlike the rest of the cards in your sideboard, Duress has absolutely no synergy with the Dredge strategy. You have to hardcast it, and you have to have it in your hand. Its sole purpose is to hinder the opponent, and it has no positive benefit to you other than that. Firestorm, on the other hand, while it must be hardcasted from your hand, at least aids your overall game plan. The same goes for Wispmare (a reasonable Dread Return target, if you cannot cast it and you need more than a few Rays). If you are worried about disrupting your opponent, then I strongly recommend using 2 Hypnotists, arguably one of the best DR targets in your arsenal.
Ravenous Trap itself is not that scary of a card. The 13+ trigger is particularly important; it is as if Wizards allowed us to get 2 Grave-Troll dredges in before the trap is sprung. You can easily play around Ravenous without a major loss of speed. Relic, Leyline, Crypt; these cards are much more threatening (so too will be the new land from Worldwake, when it comes out). Sideboard cards should specifically counter these cards, not the lesser threat of Trap.
I disagree that you should "ALWAYS" play 4. 3 is more than sufficient. Many of the artifact GY hate cards can be played around, or are not immediately threatening. Enchantments are far more problematic. An active Moat can shut you down for two turns, long enough for the Enchantress player to win. Chalice and EE will often slow your opponent down as much as it slows you down, OR their deck was slower to begin with. You have time to deal with artifacts, in most cases. Enchantment hatred and threats are far more serious.
-ktkenshinx-
Issue is that people do run the trap in their sideboards despite the card being narrow and worse than relic, crypt and leyline and that it has it's situational success against dredge. I guess we can all agree that trap is worse than conventional gy hate.
Team Legal Actions.
I love when people play with trap, all you have to do is Therapy them for trap and all there hate is gone. To be honest Tormods Crypt and Relic has become quiet bad recently after parchers SB, from the LED version.
Trap in an aggressive deck is usually the best gy hate.
When you're trying to keep up by dredging every turn with all of your draw one trap can just be a blow out.
You can't just say your going to therapy their hand, you still need a therapy and a creature that you don't need to block and most of the time a turn 1 blind name game2/3 I name goyf do to it being their best kill vs. us.
I dont get what this is supposed to mean. Ravenous trap gets played for free if opponent has 3 or more cards go to the grave this turn. You dredge your first draw step and dump in 2 ichorids off your deck (I dont know your exact build I will just use Ichorid as an example) along with some other dredgers, they trap, you are pretty mcuh hosed unless you played turn 1 tribe/imp and have more juice in your hand. I would rather have duress g2/3 against decks since I get to see their hand and play around whatever they have coming. True you need to cast it, but g2/3 you arent going to be as reckless going all in.. You will keep a slower hand with 1 land or more over a DDD (at least I would) I may run another land in my board(I run 13 maindeck) to support the extra mana investment of duress/ray. COV is good, dont get me wrong, in my meta I am WAY more concerned seeing propaganda or facing enchantress, where bouncing it isnt going to do shit for you. I need to KILL enchantments. I also do not run zealot, so I wont be turn 2ing anyone. I grind it out with tokens, Iona, maindeck ancestor's chosen.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
Unmask has widely been accepted as a sideboard card (even MD in some builds) so for someone to use Duress isn't that much of a stretch.
@ Duress
Isn't thought seize is strickly better.
Siding in 4 duress vs. zoo with ravenous trap seems wrong..
If you miss the trap you can still snag a goyf before it starts giving you a headache.
Vs. combo I guess the 2 life could make it problematic, but though seize > duress vs. any deck with creatures.
So I've ran into a bunch of Leylines from decks that could recast them, and I really did not have enough juice to Chain/discard them. So I was wondering about substituting them for Wispmare or Emerald Charm. I think that Charm might be better because it is an instant spped, but Wispmare can be a dude to make zombies if it matters. Thoughts?
My statement was unclear. Let me rephrase. There is a persistent myth that graveyard hatred is highly problematic for Dredge. This is not true. Trap, being a responsive, not active, hate card, is even less problematic than Relic or Crypt. You simply play conservatively against your opponent, forcing them to prematurely spring the Ravenous Trap in response to an early Therapy. As for a discard outlet, in builds that run 4 Imps and 4 Tribes, this is rarely a problem. You have a far higher chance of getting one of those than your opponent does of getting a Ravenous Trap (especially since deck data reveals that this card tends to get played in sets of 3 as opposed to 4). The chances of dredging 2 Ichorids on your first draw are extremely low. If you are that unlucky, then any number of graveyard hatred cards would derail you. Your statement about Trap would apply equally well to a situation in which the opponent was toting a Relic or Crypt.
I agree with slowing down for games 2 and 3, but the only card that Duress deals with that another board card does not is Ravenous Trap. It seems silly to board in additional hatred for one single card. Yes, Duress is going to cause damage to other strategies, but so too will your other board cards. They are also more versatile, and more coherent with your overall strategy (Mare/Chewer can be recurred, Firestorm discards your dredgers, etc.)I would rather have duress g2/3 against decks since I get to see their hand and play around whatever they have coming. True you need to cast it, but g2/3 you arent going to be as reckless going all in.. You will keep a slower hand with 1 land or more over a DDD (at least I would) I may run another land in my board(I run 13 maindeck) to support the extra mana investment of duress/ray.
Your point on CoV is fair; if it is a metagame call, then I am not one to suggest otherwise.
I am questioning the usefulness of all such cards, be they Unmask, Duress, Thoughtseize, etc. Are they really necessary? What cards do they uniquely stop? What decks are they uniquely important against? Not all builds run the card, so I am wondering what the thought process is that goes behind its inclusion.
-ktkenshinx-
Last edited by ktkenshinx; 01-25-2010 at 08:00 PM. Reason: reformatted
Decks that do not run artifact hate to make your grudges useful, ie. ravenous trap, faerie macabre.
They're not vs. a particular match-up just how they board vs. you.
It could also improve your combo match-up.
What really?? That statement makes zero sense at all........ Trap is a very good hate card combined with other hate such as relic, crypt, wheel sun and moon. Obviously using trap as your only hate seems to suck pretty badly. Answering one hate card with dredge is very easy and (in my meta) any player who wants to win against dredge has a varied hate. Trap is good as a surprise effect and any good player will trap you after you dredge and before your main. Which was already intelligently mentioned, but was written off as you can just cabal it... My meta also has counterspells such as force of will and I usually don't get 4 cabals off my first dredge. So unless I know they have trap that is pretty far down the list of cards to name with my first cabal.There is a persistent myth that graveyard hatred is highly problematic for Dredge. This is not true
As far as people saying chain of vapor is the be all in their sbs, wouldn't it just be better to have answers for threats instead of trying to bounce it? Wispmare just seems so much better then just bouncing leyline, same with needle/grudge for artifacts. My sb consists of 1 ancestors chosen, 1 flame-kin, 3 firestorm then a combination of artifact and enchantment hate. What else is there to worry about??
Reanimator deck
Second turn blazing archon
That's why u need chain.
nice I should have know that everyone has chain in their sb to bounce Blazing Archon which can probably just be discarded again and played again. If Blazon Archon is running rampant in your meta it seems like hard counters would be better then just trying to bounce. I would guess that most people have chain in their sb to bounce leylines which imo Wispmare is better, especially when they have more lands and can chain you back
Question was when chain is good when wisp is not. And that's what I said.
With archon in game its not hard to amass an army so bounce for one turn is enough.
In general chain has more broad application.
dont they run force? also you arent going to mull into chain against reanimator, they will just discard it and reanimate again.... that doesnt seem like a good reason to run COV
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
I agree that Faerie Macabre is a threatening card, and one worthy of concern. Thankfully, it is all but absent from most deck's sideboard. In the past year, from January 2010 going back to January 2009, there have been only 26 decks that ran Macabre that made it to the Top 8 of any major event (Source, Deckcheck.net, http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?main=Faerie+Macabre). This leads me to believe that it is not a serious threat worthy of consideration in our boarding plans. Yes, there are decks that run Macabre that did not make Top 8, but I do not believe those numbers are remotely significant.
Now, Ravenous Trap is substantially more prevalent. The question is, how much of a threat is the trap? Is it worth boarding for? I believe that it CAN be worth boarding for, but only with certain cards. Duress is an alright answer. As is Nix, Spell Pierce, and Dispel (the new counterspell from Worldwake). All of these cards are possible answers to Trap, but they are not necessary answers. Trap has a maindeck counter in the form of Therapy. Provided you dredge conservatively, not explosively, then you can easily force your opponent to blow a valuable Trap prematurely. Why are they so valuable? Because your opponent only has 3, in all likelihood. Surveying the sideboards of decks for the past few months, we see that an overwhelming number of them use only 3 Traps. More use 2 than do 4. If you are running 4 Therapy's and at least 1 Hypnotist, you have a good chance of forcing your opponent to activate their traps early. This will then allow you, provided you saved cards in your hand, to explode the following turn.
Take a look at the results for Dredge in the past few months. Dredge has consistently placed in the top 16 of all the SCG events (top 8 in some). Dredge continues to do well in other events, with dozens of top 8 finishes (and tournament victories) in just January of 2010 alone. Now, if we just looked at the sideboards of their opponents, we would think that Dredge had no chance in hell. 4 Crypts, 4 Leylines, 3 Traps, 4 Relics, 4 Wheel; every board has one of these sets. Yet, Dredge continues to prevail, despite the ferocious hatred that Wizards keeps printing. It is so easy for people to say "Here is the sick, textbook play that you do with this card, and here is how it totally owns Dredge." For example, your own comment, "Trap is good as a surprise effect and any good player will trap you after you dredge and before your main." We can go on for hours with these idealized scenarios, but the bottom line is simple. The deck evidence shows that Dredge prevails despite these plays. Countermagic, graveyard hate, etc; it does not just stop Dredge flat in its tracks. This is the myth of graveyard hate.
-ktkenshinx-
I don't think you even read my post and I love how you tried to quote me then only used half of what I said. First of all I only mentioned trap because all the people keep saying, "we don't care about trap we just cabal therapy it" which is obvious not correct for the reasons I mentioned. Trap by itself is not that good or any of the others that you mentioned. I stated that dredge has problems with VARIED hate, meaning (for example) 3 crypts, 2 jailer and 2 trap. You tried saying that dredge can win through a set of leylines or a set of crypts, I"m agreeing with you. Like I mentioned varied hate is the way to beat dredge or dredge will win as you said through hate. So I'm almost thinking we agree
I can play the game also, why is everyone so worried about Faerie Macabre, we can just cabal it out of their hands..... So the argument is still valid if they play it when we can't cabal them for it. These idealized scenarios are what magic is about and why you need to have answers for hate and why trap is a good card combined with other graveyard hate.
So yes we are agreeing, I would play dredge in every tournament I went to if people were only running 3 traps or 3 of anything as their HATE for dredge. But that isn't happening in my meta for the most part
As far as the chain on the Blazing Archon, that doesn't even deserve any more talking about. Your kinda on a clock when he is on the board so I don't think you can sit and build to much of an army
12:08 A.M. here, I just got back, 20 Minutes ago, coming from a 20+ man tournament, 4 rounds of Swiss.
My list is the following:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Theraphy
2 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study
4 Breaktrough
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Sideboard
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Realm Razer
3 Unmask
I got there like 1 hour early, but had some nice chats with everyone.
There was a couple of really friendly people.
Anyways, tournament started.
1st Match up: Played James piloting some BGU deck.
Round 1:
All I can recall from this match up was that he has Dark Confidant, Sensei's Divining Top, and Counterbalance In play.
I won with a bunch of zombie tokens and DRed a 14/14 troll.
SB In: +3 Chain of Vapor, +1 Woodfall Primus
SB Out: -1 Coliseum, -1 Breaktrough, -1 Tireless Tribe, -1 Iona
Round 2:
He chose to go 1st, dropping, Leyline of the Void and Sensei's Divining Top.
I dropped City of brass and casted Putrid Imp.
His 2nd turn He dropped Dark Confidant and passed the turn.
I dropped Undiscovered Paradise, Playing Chain of Vapor, discarded some dredgers and used the city of brass to play Careful study,
dredging 2 narcomoebas.
I just killed him by constantly attacking with 2X narco, and 2/2 putrid Imp, and kept my tribe on standby.
I won 2 games in a row. Current standing 1-0
2nd Matchup: Chris piloting Counter Slivers
Round 1:
He won the die roll and went first.
I don't remember much of this round, except that I was undisrupted and won early.
SB In: +3 Chain of Vapor, +1 Woodfall Primus
SB Out: -1 Colisuem, -1 Breaktrough, -1 Tribe, -1 Iona
Round 2:
He chose to go first, dropped wasteland, Relic of Progenitus, and Tormod's Crypt.
His turn 2 He dropped another Relic of Progenitus and Aether Vial.
I couldn't recover at all, not when he's hitting me with several big slivers.
SB In: +3 Ancient Grudge
SB Out: -3 Chain of Vapor
Round 3:
I chose to go 1st, dropping city of brass and Imp with Ancient Grudge also in my hand.
His turn he dropped Tropical Island, Relic of Progenitus, and Tormod's Crypt.
My 2nd turn, I dredged a few, but gained nothing good, my grudge ran into a daze.
His turn he dropped another Crypt, I didn't give up and tried to keep fighting,
but he dropped his 2nd relic during on of the later turns.
I couldn't do anything about this at all.
I won 1st game, he won the next 2. Current standing 1-1
3rd Match up: Brad Piloting ANT
This was a very uncomfortable match, as the person kept swearing and pounding the table,
Round 1:
I won the die roll, and chose to go 1st.
I dropped Gemstone Mine and a Tireless Tribe and passed the turn.
His turn, he spent like 5 minutes staring at my tireless tribe for some unknown reason,
and was calculating so much stuff "Combo?" I thought to my self.
He dropped swamp and a Mox Diamond, Played Infernal Tutor revealing LED, and passed the turn. EoT discard dredgers.
My turn I dredged, casted Therapy naming LED, I saw a burning wish too, and Flashbacked to get rid of it.
He got really mad, swore really loud and pounded the table. He conceded.
SB In: +3 Unmask, +1 Ancestor's Chosen
SB Out: -1 Coliseum, -1 tribe, -1 Careful Study, -1 Iona
Round 2:
In this round, I was able to unmask his Ad Nauseum, but he instead Burning Wished for Empty the warrens,
and put down ten (10) 1/1s.
With Imp in play, I chain dredged with Breaktrough, DRed Ancestor's Chosen, boosting me to 43 Health.
His Ten 1/1s vs my 1 Ancestor's Chosen and three 2/2s.
He got angry and conceded. I said good game and was going to shake his hand but he just walked away swearing.
Won 2 games in a row... Curent standing 2-1
4th Match up: Brian piloting Bant.
Nice and friendly guy, also lent me his tokens for the entire tournament, but he knew what I was playing with and I dont know his.
Round 1:
1st round took some delay, as my Putrid Imp ran into a daze, but I had tribe in hand as well and a coliseum.
I dredged for a little until I can build up enough to get 7 cards in graveyard for my coliseum.
He scooped when I activated coliseum, and he can' really stop me from amassing an army of tokens.
SB in: +3 Chain of Vapor, +1 Woodfall Primus
SB out: -1 coliseum, -1 Breaktrough, -1 putrid imp, -1 Iona.
Round 2:
This was a close race, trading hits per hits with my earlier zombies, putrid imp, and ichorids vs his double tarmogoyf,
even after being hit with relic (got 1 of my bridges). But eventually,
my Ichorid's ran out of food, and I was unlucky to not find any more bridges.
SB In: +3 Ancient Grudge, +1 Woodfall Primus
SB Out: -1 Cephalid Coliseum, -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Iona
Round 3:
I chose to go first opening with City of Brass and Putrid Imp.
He casted Noble Hierarch. EoT discard dredgers.
My turn I dropped another rainbow land, Casted Theraphy naming Daze. I saw 2 Tarmogoyf's and 1 Meddling Mage.
I dropped Imp, flashbacked Therapy naming goyf, used the therapy that was dredged earlier, naming meddling Mage.
2 Zombie Tokens, and Ichorid recursions while building up additional tokens, while opponent digs for answers, but concedes.
I won 2, He won once... Current standing 3-1.
Took 5th place in the tournament, even though I saw that others ahead of me were also 3-1.
Last edited by Zappa; 01-26-2010 at 05:08 AM. Reason: Some corrections.
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
i think you mixed something up there right? Or did he let you dredge from the "exile"
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