Is Hatred-based Mono Black really better than straight-up Sui Black? Yeah, if Hatred goes unanswered you're going to take out a huge chunk of your opponent's life total (or all of it) but it seems like the whole plan rolls over to a well-placed counterspell. The concept just seems too gimmicky. I'd rather just stick with what Black does best - DISRUPTION:
Creatures (with enough disruption you really don't need that many creatures):
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 DARK CONFIDANT (how can you seriously not run this guy??)
4 Nantuko Shade
Spells:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach (unarguably one of the best black cards in Magic)
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands:
4 Wasteland (mono-black NEEDS this card, and with Sinkhole you've got answers to stuff like Factory, which can be tough for this deck sometimes)
1 Volrath's Stronghold (lets you get a lot more mileage out of your creatures)
1 Tomb of Urami (uncounterable 5/5 flyer at instant-speed)
1 Urborg (because why not?)
13 Swamp
Sideboard:
4 Extirpate (utterly destroys decks like Solidaity, other combo)
3 Engineered Plague (invaluable against tribal decks and Empty the Warrens)
2 Pithing Needle (just a great utility card against tons of different decks)
2 Withered Wretch (some essential GY hate)
2 Duress (extra disruption against combo/control)
1 Dystopia (against Solitary Confinement, Aluren, etc.)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (if needed against Fish, Gobins, Zoo, etc.)
I know this sort of Mono-BBB deck is a lot different than Hatred-based Mono-BBB but IMO Phyrexian Negator should never be anything more than a sideboard card in either deck. Legacy is so aggro-heavy right now I have no idea why you'd ever want to run him against decks that run... well... creatures.
Also, how is Kaervek's Spite in any way better than Tomb of Urami? Urami serves the same purpose but is virtually uncounterable plus has evasion. With either card, you'd only play it when it would kill your opponent so why have to sac all your permanents and pay that much life when you don't need to? Just my thoughts anyway...
infernal contract is also good for that also, plus you gain 4 cardsOriginally Posted by Savo
i don't know if that would really work out though.
that card seems like it would work in Pox. seems like its made for it actually.
Well, Kaervek's Spite can be used an additional sac outlet for Abysal Prosecutor alongside Cabal Therapy, Gatekeeper of Malakir/Diabolic Edict and if you splash red, Fling.
I wasn't a fan of Abyssal Prosecutor because it seemed too conditional for a Grinning Demon with evasion, but with this many sac outlets all of which are a great fit into the deck on their own, I'm coming around.
The question, which to opt for to supplement this... Tombstalker or Dark Confidant? I'm leaning towards Tombstalker.
I would only ever run Tombstalker over Dark Confidant for two reasons:
--If money is an issue. Dark Confidant IS an expensive card.
--If you have a high mana curve. I always run a SUPER low curve in my Mono-BBB deck (only CMC 0-2 maindeck) so I can warrant running Bob. But if youre running anything 4cc or more I wouldn't run him.
A 4cc isn't so bad. It's not like there'll be 12 of them in the deck. If you are getting that much then it may be a better idea to not run Bob.
Also I would suggest Right of Consumption as an additional sac outlet since you can fling the critter and gain life. The sac is also part of the CC so if it was just to kill of the New Demon it's guaranteed. Also, Bone Splinter wouldn't be that bad either. I know you don't really want to kill the demon to take out another critter but sometimes you have to (remember you can aim the Splinter back at the demon).
This card will never be good. If you have 2 on the board, your opponent gets a 2 for 1 with swords.
Maybe play this in a deck with lich? they will be 13/13's. Throw in wall of blood for defence.
(joke)
Dall9ll
Carnophage/Sarcomancy is definitely subpar and does not put enough pressure on your opponent. It can be blocked by basically everything including Mishra’s factory or they will just ignore it. I play Sarcomancy because it has synergy with Phyrexian Negator which you don’t like. I would play Vampire Lacerator as well if you like those 1 drop guys..
16 creatures is low imo also. There will be quite a few games when you don’t draw many or 1 zombie to face off vs his Tarmogoyf.
There was a long and lengthy discussion about how Dark Confidant does not put any pressure on your opponent which imo suicide needs to do. I would look at that before including them.
Edict is a dead card against Dream halls, Belcher, Solidarity, ANT, Burn and the list goes on. They are also bad against elves, goblins, fish and countersliver as you need to kill specific things on the board, not just anything.
There should not be a late game with this deck so Stronghold should not be an issue.
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth helps your opponent kill you. In the last tournament I was stuck on Swamp and Wasteland as my mana with 2 Hymns to Tourach in my hand. My opponent played Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and I destroyed him easily. It was ridiculous and he conceded before the game was over. Don’t play cards that help your opponent kill you.
Kaervek’s Spite is bad now I think. Soul Spike is better and safer as a finisher and more useful if you need to kill something.
Say what you will about Negator. Most people’s answer is Swords which helps me gain 5 life and Shackles and I am usually able to keep my opponents land count fairly low. I think the key is just how to utilize the card. If you know how to play him and when to play him, he’s not a problem. Like if you’re opponent goes Wooded Foothills, Kird Ape I know I can’t play him until my opponent is out of cards and all my permanents are out. I’ve done this against Zoo and it can work. It can go against you to, but against any deck without heavy red then you are gold with him.
Also, is there a reason you don’t run Hypnotic Specter? To me he is the best black creature in the game. Definitely would run him over zombies of confidant. Specter really puts a lot of pressure on your opponent.
Just my two cents.
Last edited by necrowil; 02-03-2010 at 09:12 AM. Reason: sorry guys i meant Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth not Tomb of Urami
Thought I'd support Necrowil's statements. Carnophage and Sarcomancy are simply outclassed by every other creature in the format that are played for the purpose of dealing damage. This issue is compounded when you run a small creature base (I know this is relative, but 16x creatures is minimal for suicide black).
If you're only running 16x creatures, every single one of them needs to be a finisher. If it's not a finisher, then it has to be so blatantly awesome that it's obvious why you're running it (this would be where confidant, specter, and gatekeeper of malakir fall - they're badass card advantage which will win you games).
If you're going to play a very aggressive suicide build with a small creature base, Dark Confidant doesn't belong. If you're going to try to control the board more, and have a larger creature base with less finishers, then consider including him. At 16x creatures, I'm assuming you're going for the more balls to the walls type deck where Confidant just doesn't fit.
Edict - Snuff Out is largely considered better. Smallpox and Innocent Blood are viable options if you're going to try running Abyssal Persecutor (with only 16x creatures, he's a great finisher). Smother is also considered to be a tad better than edict. Realistically, the best creature removal is Gatekeeper of Malakir. He's card advantage, and never a dead draw. After you're running 4x Gatekeeper, then choose from other options. There's really no reason to not run Gatekeeper first. I'm trying to come up with one... but I can't.
Tomb or Urami... yikes.
Kaervek's Spite is too risky. If you don't kill them right then, you've lost the game. After you've paid the cost of sacrificing everything, what happens when your opponent just Force of Will's you? It's a desperate move that doesn't warrant deck space. Like Necrowil said, Soul Spike deals 1 less damage without the massive risk. Both of these cards are pretty conditional though. I'd say run them Soul Spike as a 1x if we had a decent black tutor... we don't. Instead include cards that will help ensure you're never in a losing board position where you need a last ditch desperation move like Kaervek's Spite or Soul Spike.
Necrowil and I are still of opposing viewpoints about Hatred and it's usefulness, but we've debated that and I can support all of his other advice. It's solid. Post was dead on.
I've been trying to come up with the best deck-list to abuse Abyssal Persecutor, because I think that card is teh sexiness... So how does the following list look to y'all?
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
1 Phyrexian Tower
15 Snow-Covered Swamp
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
i think fleshbag marauder is a bad card simply because it is a 3/1 for 3 and too conditional.
and of course edict as we just discussed above sucks against a lot of decks. i would cut the edicts and marauders for +4 sinkhole.
i'm not a fan of confidant as we talked about.
also, you look like your swamp count is low for running 4 shade. if you are running snow, you should check out withering wisps. it wins me a lot of games. its a little better then pestilence.
you may consider adding another tower as well.
10 discard is good number.
i may not play abyssal persecutor at all depending. i don't think my deck needs it.
of course when cards like this are released shouldn't you reexamine everything.
honestly if i do decide to run this in my deck, it will make phyrexian negator that much better simply because abyssal persecutor is one more permanent to sacrifice to phyrexian negator. it seems to make sense.
Direct from the FAQ:
Death's shadow gains power and toughness when at a negative life total..
.. because sometimes 13/13 just doesn't cut the mustard.
Long time reader, first time poster.
I just have to say I'm kind of surprised at the suggestions of Hatred-esque decks of old Sui Black. As mentioned by Galroth earlier ( I believe it was you.. a couple pages back ), modern Sui Black isn't really so much Sui anymore. It's actually styled MBA ( monoblack aggro ) over at MTGSalvation as opposed to Sui Black. Not that MTGS is canon for the naming of decks, but I don't think even remotely competitive decklists run any first-turn critters anymore.
The premise of Sui Black is to disrupt, and then land threats. I don't see how a first-turn Carnophage/Sarcomancy/Dark Rit into some 2/2s is remotely scary anymore. With the ever-present Goyf, almost all our early 1 and 2 drop beaters are laughed at. Especially considering the discard suite that should be integral to any monoblack deck, we should be playing more and more disruption, and less threats.
I would say the best play against any deck, on a decently plausible draw ( nothing ridiculous like 2 - 3 Dark Rits in hand + Land + threats ) is T1 Swamp Dark Rit -> Thoughtseize -> Hymn. Sui Black seeks to neuter any early plays before they materialize. That's why the combo and control MUs are pretty alright for us during all games. I would argue that every one-drop black critter, with the possible except of the newest Death's Shadow, is overshadowed by disruptive cards like Thoughtseize, Duress, and Therapy.
Here's my decklist:
Land
11 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tomb of Urami
3 Wasteland
Creatures
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Dark Confidant
3 Tombstalker
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Phyrexian Negator
Non-creature
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Smother
2 Duress
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Dystopia
5 Diabolic Edict + Snuff Out combination
3 Extirpate + Cabal Therapy combination
The maindeck choices:
- Confidant + Stalker: the deck is styled Sui Black for a reason. Best beater in black combined with CA on a stick.
- SDT: in here for an early play off Ritual if necessary; ensures card quality, not dying to Tombstalker off Confidant trigger.
- 3/3 split Negator/Nighthawk: not running Hippie at this time. See below. I also don't shy away from Negator because he is the strongest P/T 3 drop in our collection. Nighthawk is there because he trades with Goyf, eats Bolts for me, and swings for four points of life in the air. Not a bad topdeck like Hippie.
- Lack of Hypnotic Specter: you'll notice I don't play Hippie. I feel six targeted discard, plus more in the board is enough to hold off combo and control in the early game. T1 Ritual into Hippie is classic, but Hippie becomes rather obsolete when topdeck'd.
- 3 Wastelands: There's a lot of mono-decks in my meta, and I hate not having double black sometimes. A personal choice.
- Random Jitte? Wtf?: Yeah, I felt like removing a Smother for a Jitte. It's utilitarian removal, and something opponents often board in hate for. I don't really need it, because 4 mana is pretty steep, and my guys own stuff up on their own anyway.
The sideboard choices:
- 4 Plagues: I run into lots of Merfolk Fish and Goblins.
- 3 Dystopia: Stronger hate than Perish vs. my field, because I run into Landstill/Control decks with UWx, Enchantress, and Thresh. You basically own the shit out of Thresh with Dystopia, because they always slow-roll/knock you down by increments. Hits PWs, trouble enchantments, etc.
- 5 spot removal: Currently in flux with the 3 mainboarded. Basically some combination of Smother/Edict/Snuff Out. General strategy is Snuff Out vs. tempo-oriented, Edict vs. shrouded/prot guys, and Smother vs. Goyf.
- 3 discard for B: I really like Extirpate vs. Combo and Loam control decks ( the rare lists I see don't wishboard because it's too slow for the format ). Unfortunately, I don't see much here. Therapy is a solid card with 6 targeted discard already, but I never want to have more than 2 maindeck'd for fear of drawing multiples/without creatures/without Thoughtseize/Duress. My list runs a lot fewer critters than decks of old, but Confidant is still a prime target for it. I usually board in 2 - 3 vs. Control and the like, because I run 3 Smothers which are pretty useless vs. something like Landstill, and I've never seen a Dreadstill list played here.
- No Dredge hate? Wtfz?: yeah.. Ravenous Trap and Relic 2/2 split used to be in here, along with 4 Leylines replacing the Extirpates/a Plague or two. Dredge is gone because it's so hated, so I changed my board. :D
To restate what I think the aim of Sui Black should be:
Disrupt, disrupt some more, then land a MUST-ANSWER threat. Every creature in my deck NEEDS to be answered, or else they will win me the game. I don't need a gimmicky tutor/-10 life for Hatred, which is pretty high out of the curve anyway. Older Sui Black decks could afford to spend a couple turns dropping weenie 2/2s onto the field because older Legacy was slower. It's outdated. Most everything in those decks either swing for 2 with evasion ( Dauthi Slayer-esque evasion ) every turn, while a 4/5 Goyf bears down on them and walls off the rest of the little Sarco/Carno guys, or they don't have enough effect to warrant even spot removal from control decks. I prefer guys that actually do something by themselves.
My $10.00. /end.
4 Shades and 3 Confidants? Shade is a nice creature but you often don't want to be spending your mana pumping him, and having 2 out is even worse. Maybe reverse it to 4 confidants and 3 shades.?
3 Negator maindeck is too much for me. I guess it depends on your meta but vs goblins he sucks (Gempalm = sac your board) vs canadian thresh he sucks (lightning bolt) vs zoo he sucks, burn, obviously.. vs anything with creatures he sucks as him being blocked or blocking a creature usually turns out bad on your side. I admit he is awesome. I love me some Negator, but I keep him in the SB and only bring him in vs decks that you need to win quick and only run non-burn removal.
Sensei's top - I just don't see this card getting a spot in an aggro deck. Its card selection, not advantage. I understand the 'combo' with dark confidant but really I see it as a wasted spot where another creature, 2 more jittes or something could be.
As for no hippie, In a build with negator I guess you can spare him. Personally I run nixathid.. (sp) so keeping your opponents hand low of cards is a priority. Also Nixathid is great vs fast aggro decks as they empty their hand quickly then you throw down this 7/7 wall for them to try and get around. Against decks like zoo I often win stalling the ground with nix then flying over with hippy.
Shade is unconditionally ( without additional spells, permanents, etc. ) the best black two-drop in the entire game. He topdecks well, holds Jitte well, eats removal well, and is your mana sink mid-to-late game when you have spent the first two or three turns disrupting the fuck out of your opponent. Most likely, you will have around 3 lands out when you first play him. The worst position to have him in is when you are on the play with T1 Dark Ritual, and you don't have your combo of Thoughtseize/Duress + 2 CMC disruption, AND you don't have Confidant. The chances of that occurring are very rare.
I admit that Negator has often been a dead card for me. Against a lot of MUs ( the ones you mentioned ) , he is reaaaaally bad. However, why would you ever drop Negator in a Mu against such a deck? I stated my reasons above for maindecking him. I could switch him out for typical Hippie/Nyx/Gouger mix anyday, but the fact remains that he is game-winning when you are against control/combo. Why not run Hippie then, you might ask? Because he is a horrible topdeck, and if he doesn't come down within the first three turns, chances are they'll have emptied their hand/ Brainstorm'd their important shit to the top of their deck. Negator disrupts in a different way by providing a four-turn clock, and also trading with most creatures in the current meta for the cost of some lands. Decks like Canadian Thresh need the Bolt or Fire/Ice, and I still drop Negator mid-game against them because he is beastly, and sacrificing 2 or 3 out of 4 lands is no problem for me if he sticks.
As for Top. That is a personal choice, and in addition to providing a Sarcomancy-esque effect for my Negator, Sui Black is always going to have a bad MU against mono-red decks like Burn, Goblins, etc. Top provides unparalleled card parity, and has synergy with Confidant, fetchlands ( which I run a variable number of in my build ) and Negator. I actually run it as a two-of for the very reason you mentioned. However, mid- to late-game, when you have the most reason to fear topdecking it, it isn't that bad. It wins topdeck wars for you when it comes down early and you've spent your hand ripping apart the opponent's hand. That is very important to me, as I am often found topdecking after turn 3 or 4.
Now for my contribution to the thread: Bojuka Bog? Tempo loss for hate against Dredge/Goyf? Thoughts? I have been happy running it as a one-of in my test list. Dredge is one of the decks I never see in my meta because everyone is packing Relics/Crypts like no tomorrow, but it's something to test from WWK.
I've also seen a Sui Black version in development that abuses Death's Shadow. It involves the super tech Plunge into Darkness, from 5D, and Cruel Bargain/Infernal Contract for massive CA/tutor. I could see it being a very viable anti-control/combo deck, but unfortunately the fact that Death's Shadow requires you to lose at least 1/4 of your life to be effective is kinda iffy. However, low-CMC bombs with noticeable drawbacks has never stopped me. See above argument for Negator.
I think a build revolving around Death's Shadow is much more viable than one just running Persecutor because of the mana cost and the fact that synergy works better than random bombs. Obviously you can Gatekeeper/Therapy/Edict your own dude, but in most cases it's inefficient, and Persecutor eats StP just like every other creature in our deck. Building a deck that revolves around sacrificing your own dude ( not even all your guys, just the one specifically ) doesn't seem as appealing to me as one that already does what Sui Black does ( see Thoughtseize, fetchland for Stalker fodder, Snuff Out, Dystopia ), AND THEN ADDS A 1 CMC BOMB that synergises with it. T1 Swamp, Dark Rit, Plunge into Darkness for 13 life, Death's Shadow, anyone?
death's shadow is very bad imho , require to lose at least half life to be used and it's a x/x without evasion or shroud.
Plung into darkness has a better sinergy with bitterblossom for a deck with a different game plan
Negator is madness nowdays (maybe in sb for the control/combo matches)
Fast and disruptive aggro black deck could be good but splashed is better (green tarmo, red burn spells and magus)
To stay monoblack you need a reason , a particular strategy different from suicide.
Fire walk with me.
i will never understand why people don't run hypnotic specter. targeted discard is fine and all, but hippy is a must counter for control. it is card advantage even if you play it 3rd turn usually. in my deck, i just kill them if they cannot answer the hippy and cast hatred. this happens once every 5 or 6 games.
1st turn specter is still a problem for many decks in the format. no one can allow it to stay on the board. after duress, hymn, sinkhole, your opponent can still recover. dropping a specter just ensures their doom. has nothing to do with targeted discard.
hippy also makes it easier for me to play my phyrexian negators main deck. after duress, hymn, sinkhole, shade, hippy usually, they will have nothing to deal with a negator even if they have creatures on the board they should be few and you can just roll over them.
it has to be one of the best if not the best creatures black has imho.
I think the fact that Hippie's discard is random is also a big factor. Hymn and Hippie's random discard can works wonders early game towards mana denial, especially when running Wasteland and Sinkhole too. Just think about how a turn one Ritual to Hymn or Hippie, followed by a turn 2 Sinkhole or Wasteland puts the pressure on an opponent's mana resources. Most of the time if your opening hand is a two-land hand and you dont draw a land for few turns, its not too difficult to recover. But with very early game random discard you could lose those ever-so-precious lands real early on.
I'm coming around to the idea the lil' beatz like Carnophage and Sarcomancy are becoming outdated in this deck. I've decided to replace them with Nighthawk and Tombstalker. Here's the list:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Tombstalker
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Diabolic Edict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Snuff Out
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg
14 Swamp
SB:
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progetitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
1 Dystopia
1 Umezawa's Jitte
I'm not exactly sure whether or not running 8 three-drops, a four-drop, and two eight-drops will screw me when I flip them with Bob or not. I do know though that 2/2 one-drops just don't get the job done when it comes to beatz. 5/5's, flying deathtouch lifelinkers, and random discard with evasion are just teh bestz. I've been really happy with my removal package though: 4 Edict, 1 Snuff Out. Edict seems to handle any creatures that don't get discarded and Snuff Out needs no explanation as to why its awesome. I'm inclined to run more Snuffs but I'm just concerned that too many of them will act against me with Bob in play. I lose 4 life when I flip it then 4 again to play it? Ouch. Anyway it seems like many here are over using Bob but I'm not (at least yet). I've had him save me too many games to consider dropping him just yet. Opinions?
thanks for reading.
For me, Gatekeeper of Malakir has replaced Diabolic Edict. The times I get screwed by not having an EOT Edict is mitigated by the fact that I get a threat out on the table that can (a.) go the distance, (b.) chump-block/kill opposing creatures, and (c.) can be recurred by Volrath's Stronghold (if you play it, which you do).
EDIT: Also, I'd probably run some fetches; food for earlier 'Stalkers and when you don't need them, you can still get B mana (via Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth... which I'd probably up to 2-3 if you're running Stronghold, Wasteland, and fetches).
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