[Deck] Zoo

[Nelis]

I should amend my statement to say "entirely" or "largely" based on the card in question being a bad topdeck.

Yes, being a bad topdeck is a mark against a card, but a small one. I'm just tired of seeing people dismiss cards because they're bad topdecks. If being a bad topdeck was enough reason to dismiss a card, well, could you imagine Survival without Squee, Goblin Nabob or Cephalid Breakfast without Dragon Breath?

Why would Squee be a bad topdeck in Survival? That might be so when there's no survival in play but even then it's less a bad topdeck than Lynx. It still has a power of 1 and you can use it as a blocker each turn.

[crow_mw]

Why would Squee be a bad topdeck in Survival? That might be so when there's no survival in play but even then it's less a bad topdeck than Lynx. It still has a power of 1 and you can use it as a blocker each turn.

Unless you are not even playing red, like majority of current Survival builds... Being a bad topdeck is a serious issue for a card, but doesn't cross the card out immidiately. Discard spells are a bad topdeck quite often, yet they are played in almost any black deck (not like black is the strongest color or anything, but thats a different topic). Searing Blaze is a very strong early play but probably belongs more to Slight than Zoo. In Zoo it seems viable but situational, which points in the direction of SB, which in turn is probably better used by something else?

[Svenyboy]

Hello,
at Saturday is Legacy in Frankfurt and I wanted to play this build:

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
1 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
1 Price of Progress
3 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

At the moment I am not sure about 3 Chain Lightning, I think 3 are random for this card. I wanted to play the Gerry Nauer Zoo from Hanau German Magic, I saw him at the tournament and I liked the way this deck is created. I made the 8. place at this tournament (I am Sven S.) and now I wanted to play a little bit more aggro-control than my Zoo/Fast Zoo from Hanau. I would cut usually -1 Helix against +1 Chain L. but in my experience Helix is with 2 Library very very important. 1 Fireblast and 1 PoP are the finisher in this deck, it looks like a good split to finish the game. Do you think this build looks solid?

[umbowta]

Do you think this build looks solid?

I would be okay with piloting that, except for the Scalding Tarns. Do you have Windswept Heaths to put in here?

Also, in my experience Chain Lightning is the better of the two when comparing it to Helix. Your list is more burn heavy than normal so you'll likely be wanting to end the game with multiple burn spells. At half the CC, Chain is better suited to your build especially when your drawing extra cards off Sylvan Library.

Right now you're looking a little too Sligh if you want to play a" little bit more aggro-control".

[Svenyboy]

I have Windswept Heath but I think its very important to get always the basic mountain. I see a lot of builds running KotReliquary but I find cc3 is very hard to cast in a meta with a lot of Canadian Thresh builds. In my opinion he is to klobig and to slow. I haven't got sooooo much experience with the Library because I tested this card in only one tournament, but I know that -4 life can be a hard thing against other Aggrodecks so I think 4 Helix are necessary. The problem at the moment at this build is that you play a lot of Burn, Creatures and cards like Jitte what needs an other card to do something and the gameplan isn't really good at the moment. I think you have to decide between Fast Zoo or really Aggro-Control Zoo and my builds looks something like a hybrid. This is the reason why I asked some people who tested Zoo builds in many different variants and knows how good is Jitte for example...

[umbowta]

I think you have to decide between Fast Zoo or really Aggro-Control Zoo and my builds looks something like a hybrid. This is the reason why I asked some people who tested Zoo builds in many different variants and knows how good is Jitte for example...

Yes, I realize your build looks like a hybrid, and now I must ask, are you trying to stay hybrid or are you trying to make the decision between what you call Fast Zoo or the more controlling mid-late game version? I can talk to you about the Hybrid because thats the way I lke to play it (even though it's not the DTB version). Otherwise, only you can make the choice.

[Svenyboy]

I think a typicall Fast Zoo is something like this build:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31237
I've played a lot of Burn in combination with the best creatures in Zoo. Fast and strong, Ive shooted the burn mostly to the head and not to creatues as removal. An exclusion is Merfolk and the Mirror.

An other list what is in my opinion an aggro-control Zoo is this:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31526
I think in this build you can't play really fast because you haven't got a lot of Burnspells. I think the pilot used the burnspells as removal and not as a "burnspell" thats the reason why he played Path to Exile.

In my opinion this list are very different. I have an other plan than Tom Ross build (or other Zoo list). Or what do you think about this differentiation about this lists.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Svenboy: I wouldn't really worry about casting 3drops against Canadian Thresh. I tend to slow roll them anyway to not walk in to their early game tempo shenanigans. And they just can't deal with Goyf or Knight without 2for1-ing themselves anyway. 3 Chain Lightning isn't bad either, i think it's the right number myself, and it's the number I've always ran. And Kudos for running Jitte.

Also, a friend of mine Thor top 8ed the same 30ish man tourney i top 8ed with Countertop last week. Another win for Bailey's pimped out, highly opinionated, Zoo deck :)

[beastman]

What do you all find to be the appropriate number of lands to run? Is 20 enough? Or do you generally want 21?

[Svenyboy]

I like 21 lands with 3-4 Fireblast because it's easier to support the second blast. But only with 2 or 1 + Sylvan Library are 20 lands enough. An other exclusion is if you run Canopys because you want to sacrifice it for the card draw and I would play in this kind of builds 21 lands too.

[beastman]

My current list is running 2 fireblast, 2 library, and 2 canopy.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I much prefer 21 lands to 20. I've run it both ways (And even 22) but I find 21 tends to be the perfect balance.

[beastman]

List:
Lands (20)
3 Wooded foothills
3 Windsewpt heath
3 Arid mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Horizon canopy
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Creatures(22)
4 Wild nacatl
4 Kird ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim lavamancer
4 Qasali pridemage
2 Woolly thoctar

Spells(18)
4 Lightning bolt
4 Chain lightning
4 Path to exile
2 Sylvan library
2 Fireblast
2 Lightning helix

This is my current list. I don't have a sideboard nailed down, as the sideboard changes with each tournament, based on the metagame.

[IrishLegend]

Bant Survival is becoming a popular deck. I was wondering how people are side boarding for this match-up. Or how people are planing to defeat it considering it can bring out the Loyal Retainers into Iona on turn three.

[umbowta]

Bant Survival is becoming a popular deck. I was wondering how people are side boarding for this match-up. Or how people are planing to defeat it considering it can bring out the Loyal Retainers into Iona on turn three.

Seriously? I thought Retainers were rare as cool drink in hell and already over $100 each.

[Frank The Tank]

Since when did a card that costs $100ish stop anyone from running it if its good?

[Wargoos]

Since when did a card that costs $100ish stop anyone from running it if its good?

You do not choose the cards - you are chosen by them!
(Just applies for cards above the 100$/piece cap)

[beastman]

Is that a serious question? I mean, really? If people can't find or afford a card, they play without it. Obviously goyf is an exception, because he is required to play almost any deck competitively. Loyal retainers is not remotely needed to be competetive, so not many people will be willing to shell out $50+ for a niche card.

[Wargoos]

Loyal retainers is not remotely needed to be competetive

I don't know.
It seems that this combo pushes Bant Survival that little last bit that it needs to go from an established deck to DTW status.
A discussionworthy card, but I think we should concentrate in this thread how to deal with it, and -infact- if we really need to deal with it.(appearance of combo, possibilty of combo to REALLY wreck zoo instantly etc.)

[beastman]

Bant survival was putting up solid results long before people started playing retainers. Don't get me wrong, the combo is sick, and I love it, I just don't think a whole lot of players are going to run out to buy such a niche card for such a huge price tag.