Mayk0l pretty much nailed it in his post.Originally Posted by RogueMTG
One addition to the above.
I agree MM can be a hosing after a vendillion clique, but seriously how many of each are you playing anyway to consistently make such a play? Not enough will probably be the right answer...
I think this is a situation where you'll have to trust the Dutch metagame.
They have several very good ANT players, and after serious testing done by several Landstill players, canonnist was unanimously considered as the best answer in that particular match-up, where MM is considered to be sub-par.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
In which other matchups do you guys consider to bring in Canonnist?
Maybe against Dredge? I'm not sure...
Ok, Im convinced on the canonist topic.
So how looks the sideboard?
And which matchups we want to improve with our sideboard?
Board:
4x Ethersworn Canonist
+ 0-4 Spell Pierce as hate vs combo
Graveyard hate vs ichorid, loam, reanimator:
3-4 Relic of Progenitus
0-2 Tormad's Crypt ?
Extirpate (also nice in the control mirror and very nice vs Reanimator and Loam)
Stuff vs Burn, goyf sligh, zoo:
2x circle of protection: Red
0-4 Blue elemental blast
E. Plague vs Tribal ?
Hm, I would need 20 sideboard slots.
Firespout for Tribal and Zoo.
I like the look of the Red splash as Vindicate is great but can probably be lived without and Black doesn't offer any great SB cards (nothing better than REB anyway).
That is if your not running Extripicate as an Iona solution.
I'll admit my experience may be skewed a bit because of context, lately I've been playing with 2-3 Duress and 1-2 Clique in the side which presents a fair amount of opportunity to gather information. Also people here tend to play either TES or Belcher, so I can't speak to playing against Doomsday unfortunately. I'm not sure making the switch to Canonist would be totally worth it as MM seems to have more value in other matchups, plus it ups your blue count for an early FoW, but you've convinced me to at least try Canonist out again.
@FredMaster: I've seen Canonist be very good against Canadian Thresh, they tend to side out most of their burn and only being able to play one spell a turn slows them down considerably, but I'm not sure where else they'd come in.
Just out of curiosity, why would Tempo Thresh board out Burn? Isn't it the only reach they have against us?
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Probably to maintain creature threat density while having their K. Grip / Spell Pierce package in. I've had the same boarding happen against me with CT before. Canonist is great against CT, btw; they have enough cantrip spells that the one spell limit (essentially) slows them down by a lot.
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If they bring in Spell Pierce and REBs, do they need Spell Snare? Most lists only run 5-6 cards that cost 2, (Standstill and Counterspell) and REBs counter those in addition to Brainstorms, Fact or Fictions or Snares/Forces from Landstill.
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I'm not going to discuss the boarding plan of TT against us, although boarding REB and even Krosan grip (unless they saw a humility/moat) is weak.
I can also see why canonnist can be useful. Even when it gets burned it's one burn spell less at your head.
@RogueMTG: belcher and to a (very) lesser extent TES is quite different from ANT. ANT just throws chant effects at you until they are sure you can't counter anymore (or they feel they are running out of time) and then go off. So if you make them answer your canonnist first they probably lost valuable time before they can start drawing out your counters. It's a solid game plan.
@I_need_the_extra_turns:
My sideboard at the moment:
4 canonnist
3 extirpate
1 crucible
1 ajani gold-mane
1 path to exile
1 enlightened tutor
4 engineered plague
As you can see I use extirpate as a flex slot both for gy based strategies and for combo. Extirpate is quite useful against combo and prime targets are mystical tutor (right after they cast it), orim's chant, LED and dark ritual)
I'm absolutely not happy with the tutor at the moment, but that's another discussion.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
I went 6th in Iserlohn February with my new list =):
// Lands
2 [UNH] Plains
3 [UNH] Island
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [B] Tundra
3 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
2 [OD] Standstill
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [7E] Wrath of God
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
I tested it some time and it performed up to my expectations. I think getting rid of all the clunky sorcery speed removal (3rd Wrath might leave the deck) was a huge step forward. Goyfs are amazing, they double as threads and removal and help to win the game in a timely fashion, I'm just soo sick of always being among the last ones to play.
Good to see some activity here.
Congratz on your finish! Do you have anything else to share about your experience? How many people were there? What match-ups did you face?
Your list has definitely taken an interesting direction with the green splash, how was Spell Pierce for you in the main deck? Was only 2 Standstill even worth it?
First of all congratz to you for the finish, as Rogue I like your idea with the green splash, seems like Goyf is worth it.
A few questions: How did you perform without the Explosiv as a cheap mass removal? You are running 3 Tops and 3 FoF's, this seems a little bit to much in my eyes, did you run in a situation where you disliked so much CA ? 2 Standstills look kinda random, is it even worth ? Was the addition of Spell Pierce a Meta call, if not how did you come up with them?
Anyway I personaly like the fact that Landstill doesn't "die", even if it seems to be a bit underplayed right now (especially in Germany =) ).
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RogueMTG:
I think it were about 50 players there
Matchups:
Dreadstill Win
Belcher Win
Survival Win
Merfolk Win
Aggro Loam ID
Canadian ***** Lose
Every Card pulled its weight, numbers might seem confusing at first so I'll explain a little:
3 Spell Pierce: After the deck was "finished" I had 7 slots left for counters. I went with 4Snare/3 Pierce because Pierce is weaker lategame and they kinda have to replace the counterspells. I might add the 4th for a Wrath of God but after all that is a metagame decision, so there is a good chance i decide this the day before the next tournament.
3 Fact/3Top/2 Standstill:
Most players opt for ~ 7 Drawspells. I always start with 3 Top, since I need CB out of the board to get a positive combo MU. I tested 4 FoF first but cut 1 as i figured it would be too mana hungry. Since Top is a little weaker as a drawengine cutting 1 FoF and adding 2 Standstill seemed right and I never regretted it during testing.
The deck was originally designed without Standstill, since it sucks as a turn 2 play (draw 3 is good, tapping out not so much). Its more of a lategame card, the final nail in the coffin if you wanna put it that way =).
The manabase was great (leave aside 1 game^^). I wonder if a Forest in place of a Tropical would be worth it, thats something I didn't test quite well enough to be sure.
---------------------
Felidea:
Explosives are quite good, but I build this with the following in mind: Sorcery Speed is baaaaaaaad. Your opponents will hardly ever resolve their key spells, so EE loses a lot of its power.
I came up with Pierce after I tested them in my ITF sideboard. I was amazed how often it acted as a hardcounter. Counterspell was really clunky and since Goyf makes creatures a nuisance Spell Pierce was added over it.
I thik the Ca engine is right in numbers, 3 Top is the minimum for CB out of the board. I think it would be possible to go -1 FoF +1 Standstill but FoF seems stronger to me since it is instant speed. Even when I had it in hand, I never played Standstill on turn 2 over the day, tapping out just screams "Kill me" even if you get 3 cards out of it.
And yes, Germany is Landstill-dead right now, so I figured taking a shot at it might be worth it. Turned out it was =).
But you play wrath of god. You should really play 3 EE instead of 3 wrath if you want to speed your deck up. For expample you cant take 9 dmg from a nacatle just to wrath him away. There are many 1-drops which you can handle with EE. Often as a 2for1.
-1 FoF +1 standstill. Try it.I thik the Ca engine is right in numbers, 3 Top is the minimum for CB out of the board. I think it would be possible to go -1 FoF +1 Standstill but FoF seems stronger to me since it is instant speed. Even when I had it in hand, I never played Standstill on turn 2 over the day, tapping out just screams "Kill me" even if you get 3 cards out of it.
But in general, you are right, sorcery speed is bad, so dont play vindicate^^.
One question to your list:
Would it be better to make it 4c to play Deed and stalker if you want to play creatures. (4 goyf, 2 stalker, 4 deed, 3 EE) You can remove your double white mana spells.
Maybe:
23 Lands
4 Goyf
1-2 Tomstalker
4 spell snares
3 spell pierce
4 Force of will
4 brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Top
4 Swords
4 Deed
2 EE
Mh, Explosives are 3 Mana just to take care of a Nacatl.
I have tested this against Zoo quite some time and can honestly say it has a positive MU right now. The main problem I see with Explosives is that you need to sink at least 3 Mana into them. I might wanna have it against Vial, but otherwise it does too little.
WoG on the other hand is a gamewinner. I never lost a Game when I resolved it. 4 Mana and Sorcery speed is nothing to sneeze at, but overall I feel it is superior.
Thy are hard to compare anyways, WoG is an old fashioned sweeper while EE is a flexible answear. It might be a metagame consideration after all, but WoG has served me well and while I ran ITF EE were merely "ok". I assume there are metas where EE might be the better choice, but over here Wrath definately gets the nod.
Black is interesting indeed. However not for Stalker. BB is not something you achieve easily wenn you just wanna do a light splash =). Deed as a sweeper would be good, however it does not take care of Progenitus (which is kinda relevant) and costs at least the same Mana as WoG. Big plus for taking care of artifacts and enchantements though. I'm a big fanboy of Extirpate, so that would see the board.
While there is a lot to be gained from it it comes to the mana issues. 4/6 of the decks that I faced had some kind of mana denial, so going 4 colour (and mabe lower the basic count in the process) is something you have to consider carefully. Loosing Elspeth is another point, she is not something I let go of easily =).
So after all I feel 4c is not worth it. While it does improve the deck, it is not enough to excuse the messing with the manabase.
Overall it does not look too bad, but for the stated reasons I doubt this is the next step in improving the deck.
Your maindeck list looks pretty weak against Zoo to me. If they open with T1 creature, you have only Swords as an answer before turn 3 or so. By then that creature has usually gotten in for 4-6 damage which is huge for 1 mana. Sure you can run a Goyf out on t2 but it's pretty conditional where you want it to be bigger than a 2/3 to be relevant, and if they have a Path you cannot answer then you're looking at a blowout. I agree that EE does little to solve this. Actually your sideboard addresses it quite nicely with 3x Path and 2x Finks, so I'm going to assume that's what's giving you the positive matchup. Game 1 looks real tough though.
That said, the list looks sweet. Have you considered a Savannah so you can tutorwith Eternal Dragon or in those rare situations where you're short on colors and you anticipate needing
and
. If I were to pick it up I'd look to fit in 1-2 Path maindeck because of my meta. I feel like you're weakest in your first 2-3 turns (duh, it's Landstill), but after that you have access to so much library manipulation and complete bombs that if your opponent hasn't done some serious damage by turn 4 then they'll have a very difficult time winning. I think Path would help you get there with a higher life total more frequently, but the only card I would consider cutting would be Wrath, like you said, or possibly Eternal Dragon?
I like how your board is no-nonsense. 4+ cards for 3 of the worst matchups (dredge, storm and fast aggro) while pretty much ignoring the control mirror. I think that was pretty smart because a) Landstill is underplayed right now b) you can operate under standstill just fine and c) you already play cards like Fact and Spell Pierce that are deadly in the mirror anyway. How was singleton Krosan Grip?
Zoo is not as bad as it looks, props to the Goyfs. You hardly loose to creatures only, most of the time you end up with control and X life. The old Landstill lists have the problem that they cannot end the game in a timely fashion, so the Zoo player gets way too much time to topdeck the burn they need. Also trading Factories (if you have enough lands that is) is pretty sweet in slowing them down. But yeah while i think im closer to 50% then other Landstillst Zoo is always a tough fight, favourable for them.
As you noticed postboard it gets a lot better, overall the MU is in our favour, but never a bye.
After all it is really hard to give overall statements, since the Zoo versions vary so much.
The Savannah idea looks pretty nice. Definately something I have to test out, I opted for the maximum of blue sources but 1 cut might be ok. Well, only 5 cards need WW ans Else hardly needs Goyf support (although it is nice to have it). Still I'm going to look into it =).
The SB was really sweet, it was built with the fact in mind that combo is the most common MU over here (turned out it wasn't, but well). Unlike other Landstill we can put up a clock, backed up with counters and that should really bring them on the fences. CB out of the board makes things even better for us. Dropping the EE worsenes the Dredge MU, with 5 cards its doable, but overall I'm happy if I don't have to see it.
Grip was as singletons tend to be: random. It showed up only once and at this point i had Top, CB and Goyf, so it really didn't matter. I'll keep him in until I find something better.
About maindeck PtE: Dragon is not a sufficent cut since you would mess with the mana, in a fast meta another Land might be better, but I would not cut it for a Spell. I didn't really try to add more spotremoval, but off the top of my head I'd say:
If your meta is ligth on Combo (and Control) -3 Top +1 Standstill +2 Pte. Top is only really good in the long term and if you don't need CB Standstill is better.
Depending on the Creatures/Spell ratio in your meta Spell Pierce might lose some value, so PtE might fit in that spot. Cutting Wrath is always risky, since it wins so many games on its own, however it is slow. Tribal themes show up every once in a while here, so I like to keep it in, but if you figure PtE is more useful in the majority of Matchups feel free to cut WoG.
How about Jace, the Mind Sculptor as a one-of in this deck? It seems better than Jace Beleren. The only advantage Old Jace has is that it costs one mana less. While this is certainly not insignificant, Landstill generally doesn't have a hard time paying four mana for spells. Both Jaces can net you a card per turn, but Old Jace only gets you one off the top and costs you a loyalty counter. New Jace nets you are card by allowing you to brainstorm for free. Plus, the option of using the unsummon ability can be huge. Not to mention that you can build loyalty counters when you need to without allowing your opponent to draw a card. If you are going to play Jace, the newer version seems better, except against extremely aggresive decks in which you need to draw that card a turn earlier.
The thing is that I'm not sure if Jace is worth taking up a Fact or Fiction slot. I like FoF for its instant speed. I love playing it with more than four mana available and a brainstorm. You can dig eight cards deed into your deck that way. However, the new Jace is cool enough to make me want to test it.
Jace is cool indeed, however he does not fin into this deck IMHO (feel free to prove me wrong^^)
Instant speed really matters a lot. Legacy is blistering fast right now and as a contol deck you have to adapt. FoF is the best card for the Job, since I don't need to expose myself. Most of the time I cast my spells one or two turns later than the manacosts indicate. Having countermana open at every time is crucial. Fof gets around that requirement, which is huge. Jace is good after turn 5+ (assuming you hit your landdrops) but FoF is goot turn 4+ and is instant. There is a good chance that both win the game, should they resolve, so I'll obviously opt for the one that hits earlier.
Another thing i dislike about Jace: FoF resolves and you get 2-3 cards out of it. Jace resolves and he has done nothing. He is still in Bolt range and you need 2-3 turns to get as much benefit from him as from FoF. Most of the time protecting him should not be an issue but still he will die once in a while before he has done his thing.
I'd love to play the new Jace, but i guess this is just not the deck for him.
I agree, if I had to choose between resolving a jace or resolving a FoF, I would choose FoF so fast. Not only is it instant gratification and 5 cards deep, Jace just seems way too slow and fragile, espeically in such an aggressive format.
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