Progenitus. I have done it to myself before to double my number of chump blockers.Originally Posted by alphastorm
Let me address the Chrome mox issue first - please play 4 or none. You never, ever want to draw chrome mox, you want the initial tempo boost, so it only makes sense to maximize the chances it will be in your opener - about 40% if you run 4. I've tested gemstone caverns (the luck counter legendary land) briefly and was pleased with it as a one or two of, but do not run it in Rb because of the increased color requirements. (it taps for colorless without the luck counter) If you want to run a turn one accelerator, try two caverns out, as you will rarely ever see two together, and they actually tap for colorless without eating a card in hand on turn three-four when you are trying to draw that last land to play your ringleader.
For the love of god- everyone reading this thread please do not play fetchlands in mono-colored decks without brainstorm-like effects. You are only opening yourself up to stifle, lowering your life total against burn and other aggressive decks, all to create virtual card-quality that will statistically matter in ~2% of games. Losing 5% of your life to infrequently ringleader or topdeck better is unwise superstition. Perhaps some kind mod who remembers the saint who wrote a diatribe about this subject can link us to that excellent explanation. In the meanwhile, just don't do it - believe me, believe FoulQ, believe other plays who have been at this a while.
Other than that, I would suggest a solution to jitte other than jitte in your sideboard. Bringing out goblins for non-goblin spells should only happen out of necessity or if the cards brought in are backbreaking against the opposing deck. Against zoo and tempo thresh, I do not see you ever successfully connecting with an equipped creature. (as they all have asses which die to literally every played red removal spell) Against merfolk and other aggro-control decks packing MB jittes, pyrokinesis will likely destroy their creature they are attempting to equip and hopefully the next in line, without costing you any mana. (and thus tempo) Pyrokinesis also aids your lackies and gators in connecting. If you are worried about zoo, I would generally sugest you have a few Taigas to nab with the fetches you are so eager to play and packing TSH. Else a split of tinkerer (against early jittes) and Tuktuk (against active jittes) will get the job done better, as they are tutorable and maintain your goblin synergy and ratios.
Please don't cut matrons for sub-optimal goblins. Ever.
can i matron a warren weirding? And can ringleader also grab a [c]warren weirding[/c]?
yes and yes. Warchief effects also make it cost just a single B.
Good God, yes.
Goblin Matron
Card Text:When Goblin Matron enters the battlefield, you may search your library for a Goblin card, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. If you do, shuffle your library.
Goblin Ringleader
Card Text:Haste
When Goblin Ringleader enters the battlefield, reveal the top four cards of your library. Put all Goblin cards revealed this way into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library.
Warren Wierding
Types:Tribal Sorcery — Goblin
Warren Wierding is a Goblin card, otherwise Chainer's Edict or Diabolic Edict would be better, or Terminate.
Thanks! I've been out of magic during that whole tribal sorcery block. Splashing black seems pretty strong. Will start testing it.
So the black splash is the new thing. I swear, this thread is sometimes like fashion, shit goes out of style and comes back and there hasn't been a metagame shift to warrant everyone jumping on the Rb boat if they weren't already.
The problem with warren weirding is that it has to be a proactive answer most of the time. It cannot be used reactively very easily. It often pigeonholes goblins into assuming the aggro matchup very quickly. Let me explain.
Place yourself in the shoes of the other player, staring you down at the table. There are a few primary concerns for you now, but the one always in the front of everyone's mind is: I can't let them suddenly overwhelm me. This is great for goblins. One of the strengths of the deck is playing against players who are unfamiliar with goblin's capability of playing the control role. This makes it so that players will often lead a blocker behind (especially if you have a warchief or chieftain in play), whether this is reasonable or not, or they leave open pretty obvious removal mana.
The initiative to force a change in roles in which you have no control is when goblins loses matches. Once the canadian player has two tarmogoyfs in play and starts attacking with one, that is when shit got bad. BUT, that's not to say tarmogoyf is the problem, there are countless factors involved and tarmogoyf is really just a figurehead for the deck's problems against goyf-based decks.
Warren weirding is like Amare Stoudemire. It is great and is synergistic with the rest of the deck, but it gets lazy on defense. It adds no goblins to the table. This is very important. Tapping out to play a spell is BAD in goblins. We are not just playing a high creature count for ringleader: the deck is naturally built so that it is important to land a creature turn after turn after turn. That's how we are able to apply not only pressure but consistent pressure. A high creature count actually makes our deck more consistent than the traditional way of looking at it with tops/brainstorm/etc.
I think weirding is a good card in the right metagame. If you see yourself constantly playing the aggro role, it is good, because it does a good job of perpetuating the role assignment of goblins as aggro and the opponent as control if it is already happening in the game. However, it can't force a change in roles at all. Changes in roles are what decide games for goblins.
People talk about how important knowing when to play control/aggro is for decks like tempo thresh, but I think it is probably the most important part of playing goblins. First of all, goblins is not for johnny players, and that is the first lesson everybody learns when they pick up the deck. The deck is not about "t1 lackey t2 warchief/piledriver t3 piledriver #2 lol!!" If you are confident in your abilities of role assignment, this deck becomes much better. For instance, if you both assume the control role, and you know what you are getting into, you will probably win that game. For a lot of decks in legacy with the many bomb cards, if you are both playing the control role, you can't be certain of what is happening.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that warren weirding takes away from that power to assign roles. It only reinforces the aggro role. It does that very well, however, which makes it great if you are expecting decks like tempo thresh, countertop, midrange stuff, etc (however tempo thresh runs stifle+waste...)
Stingscourger, on the other hand, does much more in terms of role assignment. He can reinforce the aggro role as a tempo tool. He can put you squarely in the control role like Mogg War Marshal. He is a much more flexible card than warren weirding. And ocassionally you just need a body, something weirding can't provide.
Basically, I'm trying to answer hungrylikealion's question. Warren weirding isn't that great against zoo. If they have a single threat out, things are probably going well or going wrongly anyways. Zoo becomes dangerous when they have multiple threats out. Warren weirding can get rid of one, but it gives us nothing else, and we can't play control with the card, because playing the control role in the matchup relies on building up a goblin base. Stingscourger saves you a lot of life and time against zoo, something no other goblin can claim. I am of the firm belief that stingscourger is better than warren weirding in the zoo matchup. And I do believe that zoo needs to play the aggro role and goblins needs to play the control role in the matchup almost all the time. I secretly know you posted that you play the control role against goblins in the zoo thread, and I disagreed with this but wasn't going to bring anything up about it in the zoo thread. Instead I've done it here. Sylvan library, one-for-one removal, and much more efficient creatures can't compete with an actual card advantage engine. The matchup is definitely within zoo's favor though.
The reason I saw MonoR is better than Rb is because I firmly believe that stingscourger is stronger than warren weirding in the zoo matchup, and they are usually not played together. I also think a high gempalm incinerator count can be important because: A) an active lavamancer is one of the most common ways to lose the game, and B) It is a much better transition tool than warren weirding when you are ready to switch from the card advantage engine to beating zoo's face before they draw too much removal/efficiency to overwhelm you after you ringleadered a bunch. I haven't tested perish enough out of the sideboard to really say how effective it is, but when I did test it, I was pretty disappointed.
Finally, I want to say something about goblin lackey. This is really off-topic but I already wrote it. I'm studying the Russian Revolution of 1917 for class right now and I want to draw a parallel to it because I'm bored. Goblin Lackey is not powerful because of his ability, he is powerful because of what his ability represents. Likewise, the Revolution of 1905 and WWI did not create the Revolution of 1917, but they undoubtedly implanted a lot of the ideas that made that revolution possible. I'm never disappointed when I go t1 lackey and my opponent swords' it. You might think, "damn, if he had connected...I could've had SGC in play and damn..." I don't know why I'm pointing this out but I see people have the very wrong philosophy on goblin lackey AND more importantly with their evaluation of warren instigator.
@Bluemage, I really recommend 4 pyrokinesis. If you feel the need to run 8 combo hate, you should question whether you really want to run this deck. In addition you have 3 ravenous trap which I'm not as much of a fan of in this deck, it's the sexy new thing to run them, but deck's with library manipulation can take much better advantage of the card and honestly not every metagame warrants that narrow of graveyard hate (I would probably go 3/1/1 relic/crypt/trap or something if you want to run 5 pieces). But if you have a lot of ichorid then yeah, why not. I'm always interested in what happens with people and mutavault, so tell me what happens. If I were to run chrome mox (I never would), I would run 4 warren instigator and try to maximize lackey connections. Gemstone caverns as a 2-of or so is probably a better choice.
Finally, I just want to end saying that I have no problems with Rb. It is great. But so is MonoR (and in my opinion Rg and sometimes Rw even). Instead of throwing lists together and saying "yeah warren weirding looks good tutorable goblin removal?! 4 me please!!" we really need to analyze what our list is in comparison to a different list we could be running in that particular metagame. I believe that MonoR is the best against merfolk and zoo, the (arguably) two most popular decks in legacy. That's why I roll with it most of the time right now.
Splashing in goblins is like unprotected sex. You might of had a great time and been happy for the increased sensitivity, and hell, she might not have even gotten pregnant/std, it might have been the greatest sex/tournament of your life, but you can't really measure the effects of what the splash does to you just like you can't measure the probability of her getting pregnant (or either of you getting an std). So please, when playing goblins, wear a condom, and don't just jump right into it, even if you're drunk.
You increase your chance of have chrome mox in your opener, but you also increase your chance of drawing it. So I do not understand your logic. Especially since you never want to open with multiple chrome moxes.
I don't aggree with you on the fetches. As you draw 10 cards in three turns and fetch away 3 cards, now your averages go up 2% which is well worth it in the long run as life is the most expendable resource in magic.
Most Zoo decks main 1 Jitte, and by the time it actually gets active the game is usually decided via tempo.
The fourth matron slows the deck down, but this is your strongest point, so cut something for matron.
Of those four arguments the chrome mox is the most important. Four will hurt more than help. And concidering the current meta I believe running chrome mox is correct.
Skizzik No Kickel
You could solve the whole chrome mox problem by not running chrome mox. What metagame takes such a drastic change in the model of the normal deck to make it suboptimal, and if such a drastic change is actually necessary, then have you considered running a different deck instead? We can always use the excuse "well my metagame warrants it" but does your metagame really warrant goblins?
*sigh* The fact that your sentence about fetches makes me want a cigarette from talking about it so much is not a good sign. I know we won't convince you and the others who do it. A lot of what fetches do is not in the numbers.
Two decks that are very common run stifle, tempo thresh and merfolk. Various decks out there also run it. You'll probably come across it once a tournament in an average-sized tourney.
Two decks that are very common run a lot of burn, zoo and burn. Various decks out there also run a more aggressive package than goblins. You'll probably also come across this once a tournament in an average-sized tourney.
The problem is, you don't know when that time will come.
Keeping a 1-land fetchland hand against an unknown opponent is almost always impossible. Usually 1-land hands aren't keepable anyways, but there are times when its ok, especially on the draw. However, more interesting, what about 2-land hands with one fetchland? Or 3-land hands with 1/2 fetches? This is when things get interesting.
Stifle on one of our fetches is more devastating than for most decks. This comes from the inherent problem in goblins: we are an aggressive deck, but many of our spells are expensive (expensive as in 3cc or more). The best way to insure losses with goblins is via mana screw. Goblins has a very, very difficult time from recovering from mana screw compared to other legacy decks. One stifle and you can very well be on your way to fuckedville.
So if we are playing zoo and have a hand of...threats, removal, taiga, heath, well, if our heath is stifled we will be able to recover much easier. Turn 1 nacatl will hold up the fort for a while during the recovery process. Regardless of our opponent's stifle, we will not be in an unrecoverable position. So we can keep a hand like that, with those two lands.
But goblins, things are different. Even if we have a turn 1 vial/lackey. Lackey is a 1/1, stopped by a billion things. Vial is fairly slow, and if we aren't careful, we'll be playing the aggro deck but not attacking till turn 4, a recipe for disaster. For instance, playing an RTS, that's like camping your army right outside the enemy's town in plain sight, with all your units plainly visible. You are probably going to lose that map because you appeared to be the agreesor but then sat there and your opponent had the perfect counterplan.
So we can't necessarily keep a hand of mountain, fetch, lackey, 3cc+ stuff g1 against an unknown opponent. That is a HUGE amount of hands. And depending on our hand, who knows what might happen. What about two fetches instead of mountain + fetch? Their isn't really math involved with this at this point because there are too many possibilities.
Playing fetches makes mulliganing a lot more common G1. And if your opponent IS playing stifle/burn, that makes things even more precarious. Please, next time you argue for fetches, do not spout some random Flores saying with absolutely no context and expect it to hold weight in the court of The Source.
If, as a deckbuilder, a person decides to cut a matron, that makes me seriously wonder if they know how to play the deck at all. I didn't even notice it was a 3of in your list, because I guess I just assumed everyone plays 4.
I'm still interested in your list, however, and how it performs for you. One of the problems I've noticed with The Source is the inbredness. We all make arguments for certain decklists and we are eventually running close to the same thing, and we become very closed to outside ideas.
I saw this too.
I was going to make a reference about it too but decided not to.
I would be interested to hear Hungry's explaination in taking the control roll.
Is it the fact you feel you can burn the important creatures, overwhelm Goblins weaker ones and then draw into burn to throw at the Goblin Player's head?
Okay, I changed things around a little after play testing tonight. I'm now running 4 Warren Weirding (SO good against probant) and 2 Gempalm incinerators, 0 stingscourgers. I tested perish on the sb for the goyf matchup and was very happy.
I'd like to make a comment on the fetchland argument. I agree, MonoR goblins should not play fetches. However, I like the idea of playing two fetches when splashing a color. It fools the opponent into keeping their stifles main when its really a very bad play. The most damage I'll ever take from them is 2, and I don't really have to worry about ripping a hand of all fetches.
Last edited by JonBarber; 02-08-2010 at 09:23 AM.
I have this reaction as well. Lackey is just good, he's not the nuts of the deck. I will often lead with a Lackey turn 1 when playing against blue to try to bait out a Force so I can drop a Vial the next turn.
After reading your post I think I'm going to try 1 Weirding and 3 Incinerator. What about a single War Marshal and 2 Incinerator? I would like to test him but I don't know what to remove.
why are players running Gemstone cavern? I've never tested it but on paper it looks horrible. It requires that you are not playing first. You lose card advantage. It has to be in your opening hand. Otherwise if you end up drawing it later, it becomes a crappy legendary, nonbasic land that taps for 1 colorless mana. So why are people even considering this? If you're really afraid of stifle then run some ravinica shock lands instead of the sac lands.
This is what i played:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Warren Instigator
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
18 Mountain
SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Magus of the Moon
1 Goblin Tinkerer
The deck feels like it has too high mana curve. I would often get hands with 3mana creatures and land only. I might put it some prospectors/marshals maybe a sharpshooter for a more solid plan B(urn).
I went 3-3, won against elves, zoo and r/b goblins and lost against enchantress twice and counterbalance landstill (in all three games i lost to a Moat :/). Pyrokinesis was great, pillar was useless. My changes to sb would be -3 Pillar +3 Anarchy. Anarchy kills Moat, Humility, Planeswalkers and random crap like Runed Halo, Solitary Confinement, Progenitus etc. I considered a green splash but I like the advantages of a mono colored deck.
Needs more goyfs.
I was using Zoo and a friend was using Rgb Goblins. He won quite a lot, actually. Perishes in the SB really helped him, and I judge myself as a quite good zoo player. Idk.
Before throwing jank in the deck, why not put in good low cc creatures? Up your warren instigators up to 3 or 4, bring siege-gang down to 2, and put in mogg war marshall.
I don't know much about the deck or if Chrome Mox is any good in a deck with Vial and Lackey, but the "4 or none" argument is pointless. Any number between 1 and 4 can be correct, it depends on the deck, the curve and on how much you are willing to live with drawing multiples.
I never intend to flame, but this is really common sense - I'm finding it astonishing that people are unable to grasp this. Would you ever play between one and three serum powders in a combo/vintage dredge deck? What about two Leyline of the Void in a sideboard? How about running just two aether vials... you never want to see more than 1-2 anyhow... right?
Cards that sacrifice CA for early game tempo like chrome mox are run as 'four-or-none-ofs' because they are so horrendous to draw in the midgame, so the only justification to running it is that the tempo netted in the early turns makes up for it. Why would you want to have a lower chance of having it in your opener but still want to run three so that you will see one off the top every other game on average?
Similar effects like Serum Powder or LLotV only work well or at all in the opener, so yes - 'four or none' does apply, and while it is often correct to play, for example, two ponders in Bant survival, (as it's just fine if not better to rip midgame) I promise you vintage dredge is not running serum power as any less than a four-of in order to occasionally ramp their mana when they topdeck it.
Chrome mox is a card you only want to see in your opener, and just as it is correct to run either four or zero aether vials, so to is it correct to play four or zero chrome moxen for tempo. I am not disputing your build or degrading your person, I simply attempt to defend my assertion and educate others who may fall prey to similar errors, such as running only 3 vials 'because they couldn't decide what else to cut.'
I am of the opinion that chrome mox does not belong in goblins, as lackey, vial, and gator are enough game-breaking cards to pin our hopes on (that do not require the loss of CA ie goblins in hand). We do not need to lose CA to ramp into a turn 1 gator just to have him swords'd and be left with only three cards in hand.
[sarcasm]Woah! Thats brilliant! I'm gonna do that.[/sarcasm] =)
Good point.
Sometimes you do want to see chrome mox after the opener, say when you get a big ringleader. Vial doesn't fit that comparison because it is so game breaking against some decks you are willing to take the risk of seeing multiple per game.
"I am of the opinion that chrome mox does not belong in goblins, as lackey, vial, and gator are enough game-breaking cards to pin our hopes on (that do not require the loss of CA ie goblins in hand). We do not need to lose CA to ramp into a turn 1 gator just to have him swords'd and be left with only three cards in hand."
If you find a problem with card advantage with goblins you are having the opposite results of all my testing. Generally I have more trouble casting all my cards fast enough than I do running out of them. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but if I'm right I assure you 3 chrome mox is right.
Skizzik No Kickel
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
