Going below 11 dredges is just wrong. You always want one in your opening hand, postboard usually two to fight the hate.
DCI: 68 10 43 34Originally Posted by Mordel
Since we're talking about Iona a few posts back. Which one do you guys feel is the stronger dread return target, on games 2 and or 3, when it comes to the ANT match up? Iona or Ancestor's Chosen?
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
I'd say Chosen. Tendrills for 40+ is too hard, even with Doomsday lists. That, and, Empty the Warrens isn't that great. I can imagine some Storm Combo lists still beating Iona through LEDs, Petals, Burning Wish into Empty the Warrens.
That said, Iona is better allround, Chosen tends to be mweh in non-aggro MUs.
This message has been deleted by Nightmare. Reason: Boo fucking hoo
Obvious it´s Iona since she´s always game and not dependent on the cards you have in your yard. Chosen CAN be gg but doesn´t locks the opponent down.
DCI: 68 10 43 34
I've been playing the LED list when I first started to play ichorid months ago, but I've been leaning toward the LED list recently because of the fast aggro, combo and lands starting to show their face
I've some questions for some people who played intensivly the list.
Don't playing unmask screw your hands often ? I've been running it in my LED-Less list and it seems often suboptimal because either I didn't have it in my opening hand or I had only one other black card that was so relevant that I couldn't pitch it.
Taking the most recent parcher's list I consider doing these changes :
4 Golgari, Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomeoba
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
1 Sadistic Hypnotist -> I'll probally change it for FKZ because if you're engine isn't fastrolling, Sadistic can often be bad. In a lot of match up, you are going to face lethal wether or not you discard their hand. Vs lands, FKZ will often be better. Although, it might save your ass agaisnt combo
4 Breakthrough
1 Iona
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Unmask ->I'll probally consider if I should keep it or not. Has any one tried the other way; 3xTireless tribe main and 3x unmask SB ?
1 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return -> Probally going to put the number to two considering I've almost never wanted a Dread return and didn't get it when I needed it a LOT of games. Although, I'll playtest 2 and 3, and it pitches to unmask..
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
sb
1 Wispmare, I'll probally gor for 3x and remove 4x Chain of vapor, considering that I know most of my metagame's hate. Nature's claim could also do the job. Maybe something like 3x Nature's Claim instead of 3 Wispmare.
3 Tireless Tribe or Unmask
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Leyline of the Void
-4 chain of vapor
+2 Firestorm / Careful Study
4 Chain of Vapor
-Team Laval !-
Unmask is all the same time:a discard outlet as well as combo-protection and disruption. It rarely screws my hand and I love it to go "Unmask myself, Breakthrough" on turn 1. Hypno can screw combo the same way FKZ could do, but with less bridges.
A huge reason against the Tribes would be that we´ve only got 7-8 coloured sources which makes Unmask a more reliable t1 play.
DCI: 68 10 43 34
When i began to play this deck i didn't play unmask. Instead i played Careful study. I was good but i can't get information about my opponent's deck until a therapy. What i mean, you can find cheap self discard stuff but, get with that + disruption...it's very hard!!
Hey NQN, not trying to be a jerk I am just genuinely confused.You said parchers 75 are perfect, but then you are saying play grudge? If the list in the OP not current or am I missing something completely? Sorry if I am, I am not that source/legacy savvy yet ;) Just want to make sure I know what the current list is! Thanks! :)Never go below 3 Grudges goddamnit! You can just win so easily through any artifact-based hate, why would you want to take away those easy wins? I´d go for -1 Hypno, -1 Tribe -1 Firestorm +3 AG.
nqn
Edit: Just realized that my last ~20 posts were like "play grudge!!". I don´t understand why so many people just ignore the best antihate to the most common hate...
Parchers 75 looks more like this rather than the list in the openning post, which is somewhat outdated.
UK Legacy community: www.magicplayers.co.uk
i'm still trying to understand the efectiveness of SH. In that list is the ¿"finisher"?. It's alone, well i know iona could haven't existed yes, but FKZ has.
SH wins the game even with only 1 or 2 bridges, is black (ichorid) and is always gg when reanimated. But imho he sucks, I reanimated him one or two times in all the games I played...but since he´s black he stays until I find smth better.
DCI: 68 10 43 34
That's my line of reasoning...it's black, sinergic with few bridges but feel that's not the best option. However reanimate it against combo is "la crem de la crem" i guess...
Sorry for double posting. I went to a small local tournament with my led dredge and i get a poor 2-2. In a general way the deck worked but sometimes luck wasn't on my side. Off course my oponents did they thing but...
Here's the list and the brief report:
// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
3 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
3 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
1 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [MM] Unmask
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 2 [OD] Tireless Tribe
SB: 1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
SB: 1 [OD] Sadistic Hypnotist
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
It's the typical list with a bit "experimental side".
R1: Zoo.
In g1 i smash him with a t2 combo. I side in 3 AG and TT + Mine. I don't rememder instead of what...i think unmask and 2 LED + 1 DA. He got relic and tormod with sylvan library and confidant...to much.
G3 was tight with a tribe on battlefield i stopped him some turns but nothing came to yard and he win for creature advantage. 0-0-1.
R2: Mono Black control.
No problem in g1. You'll see this is a pattern.
G2 side in CoV istead of BreakT and 2-3 LED + DA. i play therapy to extirparte...nothing. I don't remember well wt happenned then but he went confidant + top + jitte.
G3 What can i say?? Iona made it. 1-0-1.
R3: Reanimator.
I'm not get used to this deck and i didn't know what to expect. so i win the dice. Then PImp + LED that was all. The played Ritual + Entomb + Archon. I answer discarding iona but he didn't attack me and i 'll loose by autodeck.
G2 Sided out the LED pack in favour of CoV. Fortunately i got the combo for the win.
G3 luck was crappy again with me. He went slow and i was dredging well: i had a couple of ichorids, tokens but no dread return to finish him. 40 cards were in my yard and plays agian the fu/// archon with my 4 CoV in yard togher witness but no DR. Then he topdecks a leyline...ok. 1-0-2.
R4: Mono Black control.
G1 no problem.
G2 Iona made it after getting rid of powder keg.
2-0-2.
I don't know what to say. G2 is terrible for me. Specially when you know that it's probable that you won't to play against "netdecks". The hate options are wide.
What would you side in this match ups¿?
@Moderators: PLEASE ERASE THIS POST. THANKS AND SORRY.
Sorry for double posting. I went to a small local tournament with my led dredge and i get a poor 2-2. In a general way the deck worked but sometimes luck wasn't on my side. Off course my oponents did they thing but...
Here's the list and the brief report:
// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
3 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
3 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
1 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [MM] Unmask
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 2 [OD] Tireless Tribe
SB: 1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
SB: 1 [OD] Sadistic Hypnotist
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
It's the typical list with a bit "experimental side".
R1: Zoo.
In g1 i smash him with a t2 combo. I side in 3 AG and TT + Mine. I don't rememder instead of what...i think unmask and 2 LED + 1 DA. He got relic and tormod with sylvan library and confidant...to much.
G3 was tight with a tribe on battlefield i stopped him some turns but nothing came to yard and he win for creature advantage. 0-0-1.
R2: Mono Black control.
No problem in g1. You'll see this is a pattern.
G2 side in CoV istead of BreakT and 2-3 LED + DA. i play therapy to extirparte...nothing. I don't remember well wt happenned then but he went confidant + top + jitte.
G3 What can i say?? Iona made it. 1-0-1.
R3: Reanimator.
I'm not get used to this deck and i didn't know what to expect. so i win the dice. Then PImp + LED that was all. The played Ritual + Entomb + Archon. I answer discarding iona but he didn't attack me and i 'll loose by autodeck.
G2 Sided out the LED pack in favour of CoV. Fortunately i got the combo for the win.
G3 luck was crappy again with me. He went slow and i was dredging well: i had a couple of ichorids, tokens but no dread return to finish him. 40 cards were in my yard and plays agian the fu/// archon with my 4 CoV in yard togher witness but no DR. Then he topdecks a leyline...ok. 1-0-2.
R4: Mono Black control.
G1 no problem.
G2 Iona made it after getting rid of powder keg.
2-0-2.
I don't know what to say. G2 is terrible for me. Specially when you know that it's probable that you won't to play against "netdecks". The hate options are wide.
What would you side in these match ups¿?
@ Parcher
about your SB-suggestion... ...isn't Natures Claim better than the random Wispmare... or generally better than Wispmare?
imo Claim > Mare
what does the others think?
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
Randomness of a single Wispmare aside......
Aggro Loam is perhaps the deck's easiest game one. However, Leyline, Mox, Chalice for one, is perhaps the most unbeatable opening. And they can do that to you. In fact, any Chalice deck can screw you, be it Claim or Chain. Wispmare gets through that.
With the huge upsurge in graveyard-based decks, even CounterTop decks are starting to run Leyline. Followed by Counterbalance, that again is a hard lock. Wispmare has at least a chance to get through.
Wispmare also can be Returned if you have him pre-Leyline, and can simply be Evoked for tokens. He can even fly over blockers, and poentially dodge anti-Black measures.
The fact that Claim is dual modal is rarely relevant, since you will want the Flashback ability of Grudge in some amount for any sideboard in almost any meta.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Theoretically if you were going to maindeck 4 Leylines, what 4 of parchers main 60 would you take out...?
PS Parcher thanks for the great primer, and answering all the questions through the thread and providing a great sideboard guide. It has made for some great reading, and hopefully for some fun games at the local tourneys in the coming months. Awesome stuff!
The Deck scrubbed out on me for the very first time on thursday, I went 0-2 drop after taking 11 mulligans and getting smashed by lots of hate. Not nice if everyone knows you´re the Ichoridguy. But I finally decided I want to play this at GP madrid and not the LEDLess list due to fact that we have a slightly better chance of beating ANT.
@Parcher: How important is that chosen for real? I like him very much but if I´m honest, he didn´t win that many matches at all...Maybe Primus could do a better job of fighting through a wide field? I think I´m gonna cut Firestorm as well, since I rarely even draw it, but why would you want it against Zoo?
DCI: 68 10 43 34
You're welcome.
This is the sideboard I recommend with the current trend toward grave-based decks:
1 Wispmare
3 Tireless Tribe
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chain of Vapor
@NQN: As you can see, I've cut Chosen. With the MD switch of 1 Iona for a Hypno, we have a more flexible answer that can stymie Aggro, as well as not being dead against Combo. Firestorm has beaten Zoo singlehandedly for me, and as such is the one reason I'd like to keep it; since Iona is not spectacular against Zoo. Iona however, is so good against Goblins and Merfolk, the other two main Firestorm targets, that I am comfortable with removing it to increase percentages against the mirror, ReAnimator, and decks packing Leyline.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
I have a really nooby question.. does drawing one card trigger only one dredge card in the graveyard even if I have two?
Stax, stax, stax.. JENNNNGAAAAA!!!
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