There have been questions about my extended list, but I haven't done much testing or thinking. Especially not since tectonic edge came out. I'm not convinced that it's any good at all, but since it fulfills a role similar to wasteland, and being mana screwed to 3 in ext is about the same as being screwed to 2 in legacy, it's possible. I do have a list, but I don't play it much.
Nice job, Stuckpixel.
I played in the Legacy side event at the PT. Went 5-0 on the Swiss (I was the only undefeated player). I lost in top 4 to take third place and a couple fetchlands. Oh well, I had a lot of fun, met some cool people, met one HORRIBLY SMELLY PERSON, met a couple douchers, but only a couple.
Top four was Enchantress, Enchantress, Countertop, UW Tempo, and I get paired vs. Enchantress. I beat the other Enchantress guy on the Swiss to make it there, but can't find the match win in the money game. Oh well, it was a very fun matchup, and my opponent was very nice and played correctly.
Should have brought an Aura Flux, didn't think I'd see more Enchantress than anything else. Haha.
Oh well, I played pretty well (except Round 4), and the deck was there to bail me out of that fuckup.
So... I've proxied this deck card-for-card as in the original post. Have decided to slowly acquire the cards for this deck, beginning with the Forces which are already in the mail (yay..). Before this, I have only played on MWS, and the value of reads/bluffs is so much greater in person that I really wanted to be able to play it at my weekly shop.
Discussion points:
-I want a third equipment in the deck very badly, because drawing any two of Stoneforge Mystic and Jitte is problematic. Yes, I realize this can be addressed by Brainstorm, but having a third non-jitte equipment would be nice. After considering the Swords, I think Basilisk Collar really does have some merit. It can easily be hardcast, whereas the swords are sitting at the top of the curve unless you have the Mystic in play. Collar has great synergy with Mother, as suddenly 1/1 creatures are killing Tarmogoyfs instead of just blocking them. I'm not sure what would be the best thing to drop for the third equipment.
-Again, I find myself desiring the 18th land, and really would like it to make colored mana (or at least fetch colored mana). I'm not really feeling the need for the 4th wasteland. I will likely find room for the 8th fetch land soon and see if it feels good. Perhaps the second island, as there are Sinkholes in my meta (often in decks with wasteland recursion), and while its not a HUGE threat, it is nice to have more than one island in the deck. As a sidenote, I had a Tundra extirpated on me earlier today, after morphing Fathom Seer. It hurt, haha, but it's not something I'm too concerned about.
-I got into an argument over Spell Pierce vs. Spell Snare. I was hoping you guys could elaborate over why Pierce is being chosen here over Snare.
Overall I had a great time with the deck tonight, especially in multiplayer where no one ever saw me as the biggest threat (compared to Reanimator or Gifts/Thopter), but I still managed to win games on the back of Serra Avenger holding jitte like a champion, combined with timely Forces.
"If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him.
If he is in superior strength, evade him.
If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him.
Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
If his forces are united, separate them.
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected."
-Sun Tzu
Spell pierce is better than spell snare because everything we could conceivably lose to that adding a counter would fix is a noncreature, or at the very least not a spell that costs 2. 3rd equipment is useless, all equipment effectively obey the same "legendary rule" because we never want more than one anyway. Running another equipment, as stated earlier, is actually even worse than a 3rd jitte, because you draw 2x eq just as much more, but then when you draw a singleton equipment, it might not even be jitte.Originally Posted by Sevryn
Even aside from this, basilisk collar is unbelievably bad. It's not even cheap. I'd probably pay 1 and then 1 to equip for that effect, or 2 and then 0 would be on the strong side. Even bonesplitter looks better than basilisk collar, and bonesplitter is bad.
If you play this deck enough, you'll find one of your biggest complaints is mana flood. When you get mana screwed, you mull to 6 or w/e, it usually works out. If you just mull to 6 then keep, you win about 50%. If you mull to 5 then keep, it's still not game over. You probably win like 25% of the time. If your opponent mulligans at all, this changes. If you both mull to 6, that favors you.
I can't remember the last time I lost a game where he mulled and I didn't, but given the sheer volume of games I played it probably happened at least once.
You're not going to want to add the 8th fetch to see if it "feels good." You probably won't be able to "feel" the difference. If you want to find out if it's better to run 17 or 18, you'll just have to do the computation. Or you can do reasoning like:
We don't have room for an 18th land.
Statistically we have a lot more floods than screws, and floods hurt a lot more. (Usually screws hurt way more for most decks, but we can play off one land, and it'd be retarded to keep 0 lands.)
But we can't "feel the difference" between 17 and 18 lands. Maybe Matt can, but yeah I definitely can't at least.
So obtaining information other ways, such as the above, or an explicit computation if you like, I think you'll find that 17 lands is correct.
Thanks for the well thought out reply! I will keep playing with the current list and see if my 'issues' fade with more play time.
"If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him.
If he is in superior strength, evade him.
If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him.
Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
If his forces are united, separate them.
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected."
-Sun Tzu
Top2ed Moscow Legacy Open today. 45people participated.
Swiss (6 rounds): 2-0 Merfolk, 2-1 BG Train Wreck, 2-0 Tempo Thresh, 2-1 Swans CB/Top, id, id
top8: 2-0 Tempo Thresh, 2-1 BG Train Wreck, split the finals.
The deck is awesome. Certainly going to GP Madrid with it. Wish me luck :-)
With this deck growing in popularity, there will also be an opposite movement: Playing around UW Tempo and be aware of this decktype, instead of the surprise effect and let it benefit of all its tricks.
Are there certain problems that you guys have been facing due to the fact that this deck got more populair while playing?
Fetching basics first is quite annoying, saving counters/vindicate's for Jitte and shooting Avengers out of the clouds because people are getting to know the list is not a positive development.. :/
Edit: Tinefol, goodluck! ;)
I'm very happy with the popularity. There aren't too many big events down here, just a monthlyish event that's really laid back. So obviously the people around here know what I'm playing and I wouldn't gain any edge from some secrecy or w/e.
Fetching basics, honestly, is not a good solution to Wayfarer. It's probably a superior move (especially if the alternative is being mana screwed down to zero land), but Wayfarer is STILL getting the Wastelands. There aren't very many decks that can win entirely off of basics, and as soon as he presents a target, he's getting Wastelanded at almost no cost. If you're running a three color deck and you can't answer Wayfarer, your best bet is usually to prepare to lose 2 or 3 of those lands and race UW Tempo. Most of the time, that gamble doesn't pay off, but if your deck requires more land and has non-basics out or in hand, you don't always have the option.
There are a lot of things people could do to have a better UW Tempo matchup. You could board in specific hate, you could lower the number of colors in your deck (especially important is allowing basics-only play), you could increase the number of lands, you could lower your curve, etc.
But all these require drastic deck overhauls.
I really doubt players are willing to do that as long as UW Tempo keeps seeing just 1 play per tournament. Even though it's made a top 8 or better at every large (5 round+), competitive event that it's been to, keep in mind that there's only like zero or one guy out there playing this deck at any given event (usually zero). I really don't think it has reached a critical mass of players such that people will actually start changing their decks based on the existence of UW Tempo in the metagame.
Good Luck Tinefol. I hope that the deck doesn't let you down.
A number of people have posted tournament reports. I went ahead and compiled them. Keep in mind, people usually only post results that they are proud of, although a number of people did post losing tournament records (and thanks for doing this, it's very interesting to track progress, read the problems that you might be having, and as a bonus it gives me some fun data to play around with). I really encourage people to post tournament reports for the tournaments that they participate in.
Tournament reports on posts: 174, 343, 362, 403, 435, 439, 448, 520, 521, 523, in case you’d like to see them.
Only played matches are recorded (e.g. IDing, byes, etc. not counted). Numbers in parenthesis indicate number of games lost to the opponent, losses are written out in full Won-Lost-Drawn fashion.
One Shot Ponies:
pi4meterftw: 7-1. (See Star City Games Database for match history)
Awayne*: 5-1-1. (See Star City Games Database for match history)
Forbiddian: 5-1. Ugr Dreadstill (1), Tempo Thresh (0), Merfolk (0), Enchantress (1), Belcher (1), Enchantress (1-2 loss)
RexFtw: 5-1. Goblins (1), Threshold (1), ANT (1-2 loss), Stax (0), ANT (1), Dream Halls (1).
Colo*:1-2-1. Type 2 Soldiers (0), Bant Countertop (1-2 loss), Bant Survival (1-1-1 draw), NO Bant (1-2 loss)
Regular Posters, in order of tournament date:
Tinefol:
1-2*. Goblins (0-2 loss), Aluren (0-2 loss), ProBant (0)
1-3. Crappy MonoU Illusions/Donate (1-2 loss), ANT (0), B/w Midrange (0-2 loss), Enchantress (1-2 loss)
3-0. Belcher (0), RGW Aggro Loam (0), Merfolk (0)
3-1. LEDless Ichorid (0), ANT(0), BGWSA(0-2 loss), Goblins (0)
8-0. Merfolk (0), Train Wreck (1), Tempo Thresh (0), Swans (1), Tempo Thresh (0), Train Wreck (1)
Stuckpixel:
1-1-1*. W/B Pestilence (0), Eva Green (1-2 loss), Goblins (1-1-1 draw)
4-0. Type 2 Allies (?), B/W Pestilence (?), GBW Midrange (?), Reanimator Hulk (?)
*Specifically indicated it was his or her first tournament with the deck.
Win/loss on first tournament: 8-6-3 (without Aaron: 3-5-2).
Win/loss on tournaments other than the first: 36-7-0.
Total win/loss: 44-13-3
Just from this, it seems pretty obvious that practice makes perfect. Of particular note is that there were three unintentional draws in four tournaments (17 rounds) from people playing it the first time, but none in 7 tournaments (39 rounds) from people with at least one tournament under the belt. I think the deck is trickier to play than I thought, and it’s clear practice makes perfect.
Thanks everyone, for the tournament reports. Looking forward to reading more of them in the coming weeks, and I encourage you to post any results you might have with the deck, regardless of the results.
Last edited by Forbiddian; 02-21-2010 at 03:20 AM.
@Forbiddian
You did miss out 3-1 from me (which is on the top of this page).
LEDless Ichorid (0), ANT(0), BGWSA(0-2 loss), Goblins (0)
Also would like to share strategy and SB choice against B/G Train Wreck and alike decks.
SB -4 Mother of Runes (does nothing, dies to plague), -3 Aether Vial (also does nothing, opens you to 2 on 1 with Per Deed) / + 1 Jotun Grunt, + 1Canonist (bodies bigger than 1/1), + 3 Aura, +2 Burrenton (doesn't die to Plague on Humans).
These decks don't have much of card advantage, but do run a ton of removal, so your strategy is to slow roll them till they are out of cards (and thus removal). Its okay to let them go first (+1 card for you). Place strictly one threat and just beat with it slowly. They waste their Damnations and Pernicious Deeds on a single 1/1, you just drop another threat. Try to gain as many CA as you can and just counter what you can't adequately fight (Sorin Markov, Stuff of Domination, if there's no aura, or a-like). Don't ever counter any removal, unless you are sure you're killing them next turn. Waste whatever non-basics they run (usually Bayou, Urborg, Cabal Coffers).
Hello there, I'm a long time lurker and first time poster here on The Source. I gotta say, this deck looked very promising to begin with, and I was VERY happy with the results. I have the deck, minus 2 tundra and a brainstorm (yeah, don't ask me where my 4th went) and took it to a Legacy tournament yesterday. I hadn't had a chance to do much playtesting with it, but your videos provided a TON of help and some need little tricks. They were especially nice because I haven't been playing competitive legacy in a long time, since I moved to Pittsburgh. At any rate, I placed 2nd at the Legacy tourney yesterday, winning a complete sealed From the Vault: Exiled set.
Round 1:
Played against a UG kinda tempo deck, that was like a mash of faeries and temp and splashed green for goyf. Won game 1, lost game 2, went to time game 3. Spell pierce sucks vs a faerie that flashes to counter.
Round 2:
Won against an extended port of Proclamation/Martyr lifegain or whatever the deck is.
Round 3:
Won against Dreadstill.
Round 4:
Won against Bant Survival.
Playing in the top 4:
For top 2, I won against Ichorid.
For 1st place, I got wrecked by a Red/splash black goblins 0-2.
If you guys want, I can go into a bit more detail later as I'm heading to work now.
Last edited by mcnubbins2t; 02-21-2010 at 11:49 PM. Reason: i'm dumb
I began to test NoGoyf, after all the rumor around it. And I like it as fuck, after some testings on MWS i really like how flexible it is and how it can stand against the tier1s, When i read that it could have a chance against Zoo, I must admit that I laughed my ass off, but i have to regret.
However, I would like to know how to sideboard properly against all those decks where you'd cut blue cards- I mean, while sb'ing, I always find myself having trouble cutting every blue card because the blue count for Fow gets dangerously low. Perhaps-probably-someone else will have already addressed this issue, but I missed it. Because of this, sometimes I can't even cut the Fathom Seers in those MUs where IMO it's visibly underwhelming and/or too slow- see Zoo, Goblins, and so (well, perhaps I took the wrong examples, because in those MUs you're likely so side FoWs out, but I'm sure there are situations when you want to take the GushMan out but not the FoWs).
I thank anyone who'll be so gentle to answer.
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Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
I'd prefer if you called it UW Tempo, just to keep the accepted naming convention. It's not a huge deal or anything, but with a lot of new players to Legacy who haven't had the history, I think everyone calling it UW Tempo will make it easier.
Jeff graciously posted his complete sideboarding plans from SCGs LA Post #197. Feel free to copy those.
Incidentally, I've edited the original post to have all the tournament reports. Also, Mcnubbins, I know you're new here, but this is fucking THE SOURCE. Salvation is for nubs.
yeah sorry about that. was in a hurry and was flipping back from salvation checking trades. At any rate I will provide a more detailed report after work.
Yeah, that's me. We already talked about that.
So i played uw tempo the first time. Here is my small report (only 5 rounds) :
Round 1 Merfolk (1:1):
Game 1 : I had two swords for his first first LoA and Merrow Reejerey, but can't stop the next LoA, so my life total go down, didn't find seer for bouncing my tundra or wasting it. But then he made a big mistake by akktacking with his LoA so i take game :-)
Game 2 : I played it better, takeing him down, he then stole my mother with control magic i think, i forgot to kill my the mother in my turn with a jitte counter said go, he untapped and i thought §&§&§"/" he can give his lage wake threser protection from white, so i loose.
( Ghostly Prison was very good here)
Game 3 : Because of my opponent playing very slow, time was called..
Round 2 Goblins (2:0): in both games he never had first turn lackey or vial so no problem to win thte game.
Round 3 Supreme Blue (1:1):
Game 1 : I stopped hist first CB, but his second stick and i had no vial , so i loose this game.
Game 2 : I got first round vial, and won this game very easy beside drawing all of my vials...
Game 3 : Because of my opponent playing very slow ( he is a nice guy, but plays his deck topping very slow , thinking and thinking you know) so this game ended in a draw again, but i had a very good baordpostion and thin i should have won it a few turns later
Round 4 Combo elves with Glimpse (1:2) :
Game 1 : Force his glimpse, get jitte online and win
Game 2 : I mull to 5, first 2 hands had no lands, so he goes off 1 turn before my jitte goes online
Game 3 : I keep a counterless hand with a lot of pressure, again 1 turn before i got jitte online too.
In both game 2 and 3 he had a krosan grip for my canonist.
Round 5 : Bgw Loam Pox (2:0) :
Game 1 : I had wayfarer and Grunt so no problem to win this one.
Game 2 : he had needle for wayfarer and i had first turn vial, and so it was again an easy win :-)
I had a lot of fun playing this deck, so much fun i did't have for a long time playing good decks.
> Each of my opponents had to read wayfarer, and then after i searched for a wasteland most of them readed the card again and said : You search of wasteland : cool :-)
> I had to make a big thank you for all this guys working on this deck, particular Forbiddian for the videos they helped a lot by playing this deck : Thank you !!
> I think this deck, at least for me, needs a lot of pratice to play it right, even by knowing the theory.
> the only card wich i don't like most of the time was the knight of the white orchid, but atm i didn't know what can be better.
> against the elves combo player i missed meddling mage in the SB
Questions :
In some game i had a lot of problem what taking out of my deck when sideboarding, in particular when takeing out blue cards, because the blue count for force is allready very low. Perhaps you guys can help me with my SB-guide or give me soem advices what take out and so on.
For example : In a few matchups i was thinking of taking out 1 or 2 wayfarers, but because of low land count, more hands won't be a kepp.(EDIT : Have found the SB-Plans in this forum).
Aside : The most mulligans i had was because of no lands, or 1 land without vial or wayfarer, what i love about this deck if you know your vial sticks you can keep hands with 1 land, i like that a lot.
Last edited by jeanbathez; 02-26-2010 at 07:18 AM.
Hi guys, i've been testing this deck since i met it in MWS with forbiddian piloting it a few months ago where he completely wreck the tombstone deck i was playing. at the time UW tempo was playing a couple of ancestral vision and court hussar. I'm slowly getting the cards to make this deck and i don't have a lot of experience with it but i still would like to throw this idea here.
There was a debate in the format and article discussion about a colorless answer to prog/iona and someone suggested Vesuvan shapeshifter, for reference:
Vesuvan Shapeshifter
Creature - Shapeshifter 0/0, 3UU (5)
As Vesuvan Shapeshifter enters the battlefield or is turned face up, you may choose another creature on the battlefield. If you do, until Vesuvan Shapeshifter is turned face down, it becomes a copy of that creature and gains "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may turn this creature face down."
Morph {1}{U} (You may cast this face down as a 2/2 creature for {3}. Turn it face up any time for its morph cost.)
I know we can't vial him as fathom seer and orchild, but it has great sinergy with seer, making us to draw 2 cards a turn for only U1 as we flip him over and over, and it can be a s silver bullet to copy those prog/iona they might have (or anything) and maybe could act as a replacement to orchild. plus it's also pitchable to force. i don't know if it could do well in the orchild slot as a 1 of. i will test him out but wanted to share this (probably) crazy idea here.
Anyways, thanks for reading and thx for all the videos and reports you made in this thread.
-Thorin-
Went 4-0-1 in a small local tourney (19 people). This deck is a lot of fun and I certainly will try it out at bigger events.
Short matchup summary: White Stax 2-1, Team America 2-1, Canadian Thresh 2-0, Bant Survival 2-1 (though could've been 0-2, Iona/Retainers is dangerous and there were some play mistakes involved), Zoo 1-1 (would've been 2-1 without the time limit).
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