So i got lucky enough to get a foil Torment Lavamancer tonight. And a friend picked up one of the old DCI Lightning Bolts misprinted. It's hot as hell. My deck will be going in the pimp thread soon.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
I've tested this build for 2 weeks now against different a lot of decks and want some comments what do you think about it:
Creature:
3 Figure of Destiny
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
Instant:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
Sorcery:
4 Chain Lightning
Planeswalker:
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Land:
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
-> This build is so awesome. First I tested this deck without 3 Hierarch for 3 Lavamancer. But I didn't like it because Lavamancer isn't good with 12 Instant and 4 Sorcery spells and the idea with this deck is to have big threads and not to be aggressive. Hierarch is very good because he fix you to play KofR Turn 3 and has big synergie with Figure. I l ike the Elspeth because it can win alone. We want to pump normally maybe some jump blocker for tombstalker or something else but I like the pump ability. I think one is solid. HCanopy is good too in this build because you can draw a card and pump your knight and it is no problem to sac it with 3 Hierarch. The other choices seems normally. Any comments?
Zoo<3
You apparently forgot that you can activate the abilities of planeswalker only at sorcery speed (i.e. during your own turn)?Originally Posted by Svenyboy
I know?!?! And what do you want to say with that?
Zoo<3
@Glorfindel
I think Svenyboy meant, chump Blocker, Not Jump blocker. He didn't say anything about instant speed.
How come recent lists run Noble Hierarch? Aren't the exalted from Pridemage and Lavamancers enough to Win the goyf wars?And most Sligh lists don't even run Goyf anymore.
Besides, aren't there better one drops than Hierarch??
I want a banana this big!
Can we focus on the "new techs" of Zoo ?
Like the come back of figure of destiny (here for which match-ups ?), the decline of kird ape, the inclusion of the punishing/grove mini-combo, the inclusion of 1-of like Elspeth or the decline of Chain lightning (bad in the mirror) ...
We have a GP to prepare :).
Oh yeah, I mean chump blocker xD well Hierarch can help to cast a knight turn 2 and helps figure. Without Hierarch you have a worst Aggro Loam MU cause Wasteland + Life from the Loam kills you and Knight with Figure aren't good draws when you dont have 3 mana in play. In this situations noble hierarch helps. I tried Punishing Fire but I didnt like it. The reason why Punishing Fire Combo was good in Extended was that there was a lot of Faeries and fast decks but you see now that nobody plays this Combo more because 4 damage for 5 mana isnt good enough and is very slow in 1.5. But I like the way Zoo is developing cause now you dont have a stupid fast Burn/Creature Zoo what lost always against some War Monk actions. I want to start a discussion about this kind of Zoo:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29647
Zoo<3
In my opinion I think the way where going with this deck is stupid. We're supposed to drop efficient creatures from the start, being Lynx, Kird Ape, Nacatl just to name a few. Tell how Noble Hierarch is going to help turn one being a 0/1 and eveything is cheap as hell in this deck already.
We play the best burn/removal already so for the Punishing Fire/ Burnwillow combo 1 we can't fetch for the Burnwillows. 2 If we cant draw the burnwillows, punishing fire is a bad burn spell by itself. 3 I dont think we want are opponents gaining life, thats why we play with path instead of swords.
As for the planeswalkers Im not going to say much Im willing to test a Elspeth or an Ajani.
If you think this is the ways we should be going with this deck explain why. Tell us match ups it going to help, Im not trying to be a dick. I would like to know for the future of this deck.
As I see it, Zoo has only has one big problem: Combo.
It destroys most aggro decks, and can often burst down a control player before they stabalize.
By running slower, more expensive threats you are diluting zoo's game plan of 'Kill them fast'.
This in turn hurts both the combo and control matchup's for the benifit of better aggro matches,
which you should allready do well in. Perhaps in an extremely aggro heavy meta this list would
do well, but such a meta is probably not a commonplace.
The midrange Zoo is better against a lot of U builds in the meta. With the fast Zoo you see rhox war monk, have no ptoe and say: scooop.
Canadian Thresh is better against fast Zoo because it has lightning bolt and sometimes a clique and the thresh player can handle your creatures. but a Knight or a big Figure is a problem for U players and thats the reason why this deck is going to be more midrange then fast.
Zoo<3
Yeah, if you want to go all out you can play Goyf Sligh. Certainly, there is a middle ground on this continuum and you can tweak it to be somewhere in between. If we can get some consistency out of being a bit slower though, I'd say that's worth it.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
I play the fast version of zoo. in my list I run 2 KoTR and 3 Figures. Besides the obvious 4 Tarmogoyfs with these 9 creatures I have no problem going into the mid/late game. The problem with are decks going more mid game, is that control will be a harder match for us because there gameplan is to stablize by then.
Excuse me if this has been mentioned before but what is your guys take on Loam Lion? Isn't this the white version of Kird Ape? Seems real good.
(1) Forum search for the win
(2) Lots of people are bearish on Kird Ape, so what are you gonna do with more of a mediocre card?
(3) "Seems real good." Why?
(In short: no, don't use it.)
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Loam Lion is actually strictly better than kird ape. Well that might be an opinion but it offers two benefits over kird ape:
1) its not red; the fact that it doesnt get blue blasted is relevant.
2) given the direction modern zoo lists are going the fact that it costs W instead of R is beneficial. any time i dont open on Wild Nacatl that i lead on a fetch i fetch plateau so as far as having to fetch a different land T1 i don't see that argument at all. the bigger benefit is that basic plains is by far the best basic in your deck and with the inclusion of loam lion it gets even better. (this is because you have infinitely more red sources than white so wasteland on white source hurts alot more than wasteland on red source).
Im not saying we should all go run 4 of them as an auto include, but if you need 2 more one drops after your 4 WN 3 Figure 3 Lavamancer, well loam lion is probably your best bet.
declaring war on magic ignorance since 2009.
for the record i have no good ideas. im just pointing out yours are terrible too.
We already got another one drop besides Nacatl:
Steppe Lynx! And it's far better, too. Besides, no good Control player blasts a Kird Ape.
Here's a list I'm gonna try on our next big tournament. In my opinion it is well balanced between consistent turn one drops, early burst damage and midgame threat density. Please comment!!
Main
4*Wooded Foothills
4*Windswept Heath
4*Arid Mesa
2*Plateau
2*Taiga
2*Savannah
2*Mountain
4*Wild Nacatl
4*Steppe Lynx
4*Tarmogoyf
4*Qasali Pridemage
2*Grim Lavamancer
2*Figure of Destiny
2*Knight of the Reliquary
4*Lightning Bolt
4*Path to Exile
4*Reckless Charge
2*Magma Jet
2*Sylvan Library
2*Fireblast
Board
2*Umezawa's Jitte
4*Pyrostatic Pillar
3*Krosan Grip
3*Pyroblast
3*Gaddock Teeg
I don't want to Play more than 2 Lavamancers, because of Goyf and Knight, but I don't want to Cut him either. He's awesome at removing blockers and winning the goyf wars.
P.S. Did anyone notice that Grim Lavamancer with Basilisk Collar say: {R},T:Destroy target creature.
I want a banana this big!
Actually it would say "{R},T: Destroy target creature. Gain 2 life."
Also, why have you forsaken basic plains and forests? And why TWO basic mountains? In what circumstances would you want two?
I would be more inclined to advise a 1/1/1 on the basic lands and 1 less savanah, on my experiences at least...
I do agree with less lavamancers, especially with those reckless charges. It would no doubt be painful EVERYTIME that you would be forced to remove them to lavamancers.
Magma jet is an unusual choice since the difference between what you can kill at 3 toughness and 2 toughness is extremely relevant. Lightning Helix (to offset painlands and library) or even rift bolt (a much needed sorcery for goyf) seem like they would play a better role.
On your sideboard: Pyrostatic Pillar seems like a strange choice since your colors allow for a lot more self-friendly hate.
Question about the sideboard... 7 combo sideboard cards but no graveyard hate? Is there only storm combo deck in your meta or something?
Basic Plains and Forest suck with Fireblast!! The 2 Mountains are just there to fill up my land count to 20, since 2 of each dual are enough. And I almost always fetch for the SAVANNAH on turn 1. Example: you got Nacatl, Reckless Charge and other stuff in hand. Turn 1 Nacatl, go. If you topdecked a Lynx next turn, you wouldn't benefit from the landfall ability, because you would have to fetch for white first, right? With Savannah you can play the Lynx on turn 2 with Savannah and fetch and Charge and smash for 10 in the red zone^^
Magma Jet isn't that unusual. With Reckless Charge and the tempo it brings, I'm always in topdeck mode by turn 5 max. Two Libraries aren't enough either and that's why I'd rather prefer putting two lands on the bottom of my deck than gaining 3 life..
Pyrostatic Pillar helped me a lot against ANT and creature light builds like Rock, Burn, Team America and so on. Allthough I run 4 Path, I think I'm gonna try Sulfuric Vortex in the Board, cause I can't stand Rhox and Kitchen Finks...
I might really cut the Lavamancers for 2 more Magma Jets.
Gaddock Teeg isn't primarily for Storm Combo, allthough it's good there, too. I mostly want it for the stupid Bant or No Bant or whatever they're called Decks and we got a couple of Mighty Quinn players here, too.
I want a banana this big!
If you already play that tempo-orientated why do you not play Goblin Guide instead of Figure? I think Guide is superior to Figure, because he is almost always a shock. Why is that so? Because your opponents tend to attack you having an empty board. That's exactly when you want to have Guide to press your 2 points of damage through.
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