Wrath of God was printed in both Portal I and II (BB), as a a BB textless promo, and as anonymos says, as FBBs. It has millions of black bordered copies in addition to A/B and those originals are still worth a bit. The whole "I don't think you can deny..." statement is based on pure speculation that can never be resolved without a time machine and a different game than the one we have now. All we can do is examine current facts, which are what I said in the post before this one (endless printing, nostalgia, etc.). The reality is that A/B Wraths are still worth quite a bit considering how many print runs they have seen.Originally Posted by Nizmox
Anyway, all I was trying to say is sheer print run numbers don't always translate into basement prices, particularly on highly playable cards, which is what people are worried about.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
I'm not going to get into an arguement, I think we more or less agree. As I said in my post, I agree with you regarding black bordered cards retaining their value because they are popular. I'm concerned with white bordered cards.
I also agree that print numbers dont equal basement prices, but supply no doubt affects price. From an economics perspective I would say that increasing the supply of white bordered versions of a given card probably won't have much affect on the black bordered version. The demand for the two is different (some people want black bordered, others want the cheapest version of the card they can obtain).
I should clarify. I have no special position as spokesman for anything but myself, but just think it through! I don't think it's controversial that a reserved list is at least 'alien' to most players, in the sense that most players do not play an Eternal format (I am discounting kitchen-table eternal because the bulk of them do not know the first thing about reprint policy, including the very existence of a reprint policy). So I'm going to assume that the problem lies with my description 'laughable'.
Consider that there are several cards in standard/extended which are of the price level similar to that of Legacy staples - Goyf, Jace, Baneslayer, Elspeth, maybe some lower level cards like Jitte. Imagine if WotC came out and said that they promised never to reprint these cards, to preserve their 'collectability' - and then further promised that they would never rotate those cards out of standard/extended, so they would always have high play value, leaving $50 (and rising) baneslayer and jace to stomp on the neck of Standard forever.
I think we can agree that this would be utterly absurd. It would be ridiculous - 'laughable', even - for standard or extended players to ask for that kind of 'collectability' protection. Yet that is the situation we find Legacy in today.
Matt, basically everything you said in the above seems to be true.
Was this even a real Skeggi's hero?Lol. You're my hero.
I imagine that if WotC came out and said goyf wouldn't be reprinted, then tournaments which offer goyf as prizes would be more well-attended. :)
What I mean is, what incentive would there be for players to attend tournies, and support/play Legacy if you can just go to walmart and buy whatever staples they want for $19.95? And consequently, what will TOs offer at that point that would justify a $20 or so entry and make hosting Legacy tournies worth their while? If everything drops in value, by say 50%, would that really be healthier for the format?
The price of certain cards can lead to innovation. Would UW Tempo have ever been made if Goyf was ten bucks? Wouldn't we see a rise in goyfs and forces, and probably less people playing things like goblins or mono-black or dredge. Would you really want to play in a format where every other deck packed Tabernacles or Loyal Retainers or Forces? I'm not sure it'd be as fun or varied as it is now.
I suspect people playing AnT mostly do so because they enjoy Storm combo, same for Dredge, Merfolk, etc. I don't think having $20-30 Goyfs (again) would all of a sudden cause every non-Goyf player to start playing Goyf-centric decks.
I don't think that if entry fees drop below 20 bucks and/or shops will double the ammount of prizes, that it will somehow hurt the Legacy community. Unless it hurts the shops alone, but they don't make their profit from entry fees nor from the prizes. They make the profit from singles and baguettes, which the Legacy players will buy forever more. And if the access to duals, fows, goyfs and stuff will be easier, than more players can start to play Legacy.
More players = more baguettes
But maybe I'm wrong. These things are hard to predict from the table.
@Arsenal. You're right. I own pretty much all the important Goyf.dec from Loam to x number of Threshes possible, G/B aggro, The Cure () and also a number of FoW.dec ( Faerie Stompy including) and still - I enjoy piloting Ichorid.
Was this even a real Skeggi's hero?Lol. You're my hero
Because it's fun and exciting to test your skills in competitive events?
Because not everyone is concerned with status of their deck rarity. Because there is prestige from winning tournaments. Because people like playing pet decks with cards that are not Std/Ext legal. Case in point: Goblins.
I have always wanted to play Quinn competitively (I love that deck) but I could never do because I have no access to Moats or Grindstones :(
Now, I am stuck with a half-assed casual version that no one wants to play against :(
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
I can understand moat, but grindstone? Those can be had for $20.
Who would play chess if you could just buy everything you needed for $19.95 at walmart?
Money is not the issue on that one. Its more the availability around my area.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Chess and magic are fundamentally different. Chess is a game of skill while magic is a game of luck. Sure there is skill involved, but luck is a huge factor. Wizards even embraces this as they could have easily made changes to the game to make it more skill intensive. Newer games like WoW tcg and spoils have been designed to be less based on luck, but wizards likes having games decided on luck.
I can tell you right now that if wizards continues to dumb down the game I will not continue playing. The best ways for them to do this would be to ban SDT and brainstorm, to keep printing cards like wild nacatl which don't require any real thought process to use properly and to make legacy affordable for all the 12 year old type 2 players.
With the question of reprints I will say again I am fine with reprints. If wizards wants to make more force of wills available fine by me as long as it is reprinted. I want to play FoW in type 2 if theres going to be more of them. I am completely against putting expensive staples in FTV sets and dual decks though.
I have to respectfully disagree that Magic is somehow being dumbed down or that it is largly luck based and hence not very skill intensive. Instead of comparing it to Chess, let's compare it to Poker. Are you telling me all people are equal at Poker in spite of the fact that it's 100% luck based, by your definition? Magic has ways for the player to interact quite intimately and knowledgeably about his/her own deck and his/her opponent's deck for that matter. Was Magic being dumbed down when David Price won PT LA with Deadguy Red? In his own opinion, he thinks beatdown is just as skill intensive as control since you're also often presented with a number of options and decisions. I've been hearing how Wizards is dumbing down the game for 10 years, in spite of the fact that they introduce cards like Planeswalkers, which are anything but simplistic in their interaction with game rules.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
I'm not saying that there is no skill in magic, but it is quite evident that wizards is doing a fine job at making the game less skill intensive. Planeswalkers are somewhat simple to use tbh and mechanics like cascade require no brain activity at all to use.
I will just use a friend of mine who recently started playing magic as an example. In type 2 he plays jund and thinks the deck is perfectly fair. He has no problems with bloodbraid elf. He recently started playing points highlander with us and has made some pretty absurd comments. In his opinion brainstorm is a "cheater" card. He has no problem with cards like tinker or ancestral recall though. Let me explain. He acknowledges that tinker and ancestral recall are powerful, but he thinks they are fair because of how straightforward they are. The advantage player A or B gets from playing either is usually the same. Brainstorm on the other hand is a cheater card because player A might use brainstorm "fairly" meaning that he just brainstorms and goes on with the game, while player B might use brainstorm in an "unfair" manner meaning he would brainstorm and then crack a fetch giving him an unfair advantage. Now to tournament players his opinion might seem silly, but this is exactly how most type 2 players would feel if cards like brainstorm were legal. They wouldn't enjoy playing anymore because they would feel like their opponents are taking advantage of certain mechanics or rules to beat them and they are in turn not having an enjoyable experience. Wizards made this quite clear when they talked about getting rid of damage going on the stack. They thought it was unfun for most players to lose to that rule and therefore removed it. People don't have any problem losing to 6/7 2 mana tarmogoyfs or 1 mana 3/3 wild nacatl's, but when you start killing them on turn 1 thanks to LED or abuse brainstorm against them they will start crying.
If you look at a format like extended as it is today and compare it to extended of years past luck becomes even more important. Something as silly as winning the die roll to see who goes first can increase your matchup dramatically in that format. If you are playing zoo for example your matchup can increase or decrease by as much as 30% if you win the die roll and open with wild nacatl.
How can you claim type 2 isn't based on luck? The best deck is jund and the jund mirror is decided by who draws more bloodbraid elves/who cascades better. There is almost no skill involved in the jund mirror.
Type 1 is also plagued by luck issues. I will admit I haven't played much type 1, but since brainstorm was banned most of the decks are much more inconsistent. In the last even I played in I fizzled twice after getting memory jar off and drawing into nothing useful. Stupid sadistic sacrament decks are also running around which are basically the definition of random. They can get the perfect draw for a certain matchup and effectively win on turn 0 or 1 or they can get the wrong hate cards and just sit there doing nothing while they get killed.
In draft you have other luck based issues. Shards of Alara sealed for example was an awful ptq season because there were always a number of people in the room who did things like build 5c decks their mana couldn't support and then just got perfect draws throughout the event to top 8. M10 sealed? That was all based on who drew their bomb first. Even zendikar sealed is extremely swingy as if your deck misses a land drop or something you can fall too far behind to come back thanks to the speed of the format.
If legacy staples get reprinted in something like a FTV set and become readily available and the format becomes swamped by the 12 year olds who play type 2 I foresee the following changes...
SDT gets banned- this is simple. Most people take too long using it or dislike this card. It will cause problems and be banned.
Zoo and aggro strategies get stronger as control becomes weaker without top.
LED gets banned as no cb/top means combo becomes much stronger.
The variety of decks we see in legacy today will all but disappear. The format will become much more stagnant than it is today.
I'll add that this topic is about the rising cost of MtG. If you want to continue discussing luck vs. skill in this game, kindly start another thread.
That Magic is more swingy, I can agree. Hell, if you watch the youtube video of Ken Nagel (? designer of Worldwake) giving a Q&A on the Love Boat, he openly says Magic to Wizards is meant to be swingy, which is why landfall creatures get +2 and not +1. I also dislike that aspect of the game. But some of your criticisms seem hollow to me. I think most Limited is about dropping your bombs. I remember once, in an Invasion draft, I declared attackers, cast Breaking Wave paying the, tapped all his blockers and untapped my attackers and killed my opponent, who was in his 30s and thought that card was absolutely unfair. The stuff you are saying I seriously have been hearing for a long time.
Now I don't know about Jund and Standard very well, but aren't there still pro players who are finishing better than others? "Wizards builds decks" has been a long complaint and even I have said that. Shite like Astral Slide and Affinity are pretty much no brainers, as is Cascade. So many blocks have obvious, flashing neon-light "BUILD ME" decks, and I think it's all too common and too simple to bring down matchups to "whoever draws X wins". There are simply too many variables and tiny decisions that can swing games.
By the way, that friend is ridiculous, and as we all know, case studies are not generalizable.
Edit: Ninjaed... sorry Bardo. Was typing before your post. Can this one stay?
Sure. Not a problem. - Bardo
Last edited by MMogg; 02-23-2010 at 07:21 PM. Reason: Edit: Ninjaed... sorry Bardo. Was typing before your post. Can this one stay?
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
Stop complaining about prices and open more sealed. Thats all I gotta say.
Futuresight can be found dreadfully cheap and there are more cards in there besides 'goyf like River Of Tears, Grove Of The Burnwillows, Tombstalker, Epochrasite, Narcomoeba, Yixlid Jailer, Magus Of The Moon, Pact Of Negation, there are truly quite a few. So bust those open instead of buying all this stuff as singles when you really shouldnt
As with Coldsnap. Coldsnap can be opened for like $80 easily less than a $100 and there is a $50 card in that set (Dark Depths) so why the hell are people not buying boxes of it.
Italian Legends are $30 and you can find them for less than this. Why pay $400 for tabernacle when you can be buying these from sealed untampered boxes from reputable wholesalers?
Italian legends isn't really worth opening. A box is like $500+ and if you don't pull a tabernacle or moat you are screwed. If you do hit a tabernacle though you've probably made a profit as you should get a mana drain as well as a bunch of chain lightnings since they are c2. If you don't get tabernacle though even if you get a moat, mana drain and some other decent rares like abyss, chains of mephistopheles you will barely be even and you will have just dumped $500 into cards you don't necessarily need.
Futuresight is decent to open, but I wouldn't open coldsnap unless it was japanese. Japanese coldsnap is much easier to make money with as tons of the cards command huge premiums if they are foil.
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