All B/R update speculation.

[Meekrab]

Should be March 19th (they aim for the 20th of the month but since it's not a business day they release it early). Anyone know if it is immediately effective, or what?

Usually new banlists go into effect the first day of the next month, IIRC.

[DrJones]

Because the GP has been yet again won by a blazingly fast combo deck with 4 force of will, I'll let again state that this format would be better if Force of Will were banned. We have always the same history, and time and time again the best deck is a combo deck that uses FoW to protect itself. History repeats because R&D is too stubborn to admit that broken control cards are broken, and leaving it unrestricted continually forces R&D to print and allow retarded stuff in an attempt to balance the rest of colors, something that cannot be good for the health of the format.

Just a brief list of winning decks following this pattern.

1. Angry Hermit
2. Hulk Flash
3. Dream Hall decks (both the original and the new version)
4. Trix
5. Reanimator
6. Turbo-land
7. Tolarian Academy decks
8. Solidarity
9. Pro-bloom
10. Earthcraft decks
11. Hurkyll's recall decks
12. Power Artifact decks
13. Dreadstill
14. Cephalid Breakfast
15. Pandeburst

Note that something in common with all those decks is that all of them had their cards restricted and/or banned at some point or another (some had the rulings on their cards changed) but the underlying strategy has always been the same: use Force of Will as a way to make sure your combo resolves and the opponent loses. If some of those decks aren't played more, it's because they lose to other Force of Will decks that are even stronger. Isn't just better to just ban the damn card and all the stupid cards that are only allowed to run rampant because they're hurt so badly by its presence? It's a rethorical question.

[rooneg]

Because the GP has been yet again won by a blazingly fast combo deck with 4 force of will, I'll let again state that this format would be better if Force of Will were banned. We have always the same history, and time and time again the best deck is a combo deck that uses FoW to protect itself. History repeats because R&D is too stubborn to admit that broken control cards are broken, and leaving it unrestricted continually forces R&D to print and allow retarded stuff in an attempt to balance the rest of colors, something that cannot be good for the health of the format.

Just a brief list of winning decks following this pattern.

1. Angry Hermit
2. Hulk Flash
3. Dream Hall decks (both the original and the new version)
4. Trix
5. Reanimator
6. Turbo-land
7. Tolarian Academy decks
8. Solidarity
9. Pro-bloom
10. Earthcraft decks
11. Hurkyll's recall decks
12. Power Artifact decks
13. Dreadstill
14. Cephalid Breakfast
15. Pandeburst

Note that something in common with all those decks is that all of them had their cards restricted and/or banned at some point or another (some had the rulings on their cards changed) but the underlying strategy has always been the same: use Force of Will as a way to make sure your combo resolves and the opponent loses. If some of those decks aren't played more, it's because they lose to other Force of Will decks that are even stronger. Isn't just better to just ban the damn card and all the stupid cards that are only allowed to run rampant because they're hurt so badly by its presence? It's a rethorical question.

Seriously? You've got to be kidding me. There was one combo deck that played FoW in the top 8 at GP Madrid. There were only 3 decks that played FoW at all in the top 8. This hardly seems like a situation where banning any card is required, let alone the card that keeps combo from running rampant over the entire metagame.

[DrJones]

Seriously? You've got to be kidding me. There was one combo deck that played FoW in the top 8 at GP Madrid. There were only 3 decks that played FoW at all in the top 8. This hardly seems like a situation where banning any card is required, let alone the card that keeps combo from running rampant over the entire metagame.

Trix didn't win the tournament in which it first appeared, and had to be banned shortly thereafter.

[rooneg]

Trix didn't win the tournament in which it first appeared, and had to be banned shortly thereafter.

Yes, and clearly that means the right thing to do is to ban the major force that's kept combo decks in check for as long as the format has been alive because the last card they unbanned had the totally obvious result of making reanimator a viable deck again.</sarcasm>

[DrJones]

How does it keep combo in check when all those combo decks use it as a way to make sure they cannot be stopped? That's the relevant question people always avoid to answer.

[yankeedave]

Ok, so you are playing random.dec, which is a blue controlish type of deck. I am on the play and I go Bayou, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Goblin Charbelcher, activate, Win. Now, if you ban Force, how do you stop this (or any other combo deck) going off first turn on the play without Force? How do you call this fair?

[rooneg]

How does it keep combo in check when all those combo decks use it as a way to make sure they cannot be stopped? That's the relevant question people always avoid to answer.

In your no-FoW world how do you prevent the rest of the combo decks from running rampant when nothing prevents them from winning on turn 1? Do you really want the game to come down to "heads, I go first and drop CotV, tails you go first and I die"?

[Mayk0l]

Your argument to ban Force of Will is that some combo decks use it to protect their combo? That is some serious fail, right there.

I'm sure that banning Force of Will will show those darned combo decks!!! I pity them.

[Skeggi]

Turn 1's aren't the big problem. Combo decks often go off turn 2 or 3, where they go off protected under a Chant. Force of Will does little then, you need CounterTop to stop combo then. The problem is that Top is a stupid card which should be banned. Therefor the power of combo should be taken away: Lion's Eye Diamond. I'm all in favor of banning Top and Lion's Eye Diamond. I hope the DCI sees this.

[Atwa]

Turn 1's aren't the big problem. Combo decks often go off turn 2 or 3, where they go off protected under a Chant. Force of Will does little then, you need CounterTop to stop combo then. The problem is that Top is a stupid card which should be banned. Therefor the power of combo should be taken away: Lion's Eye Diamond. I'm all in favor of banning Top and Lion's Eye Diamond. I hope the DCI sees this.

This.

I've always said that when Combo gets too strong, LED should be the first card to go. However, now with the printing of Spell Pierce, I'm not sure if combo would get out of hand if you get rid of SDT.

Suggesting to ban FoW to keep combo in check is the most ridiculous suggestion I've heard in a while. The only reason Combo as an archetype is kept in check is because of FoW. If Wizards ban FoW, most combo decks will just fill the spot with other acceleration of more engine pieces, and probably also remove some of their Chants/Silences, since they have less cards to fear from their opponents.

As for now I don't want any card to get banned, but if something needs to go, it's SDT.

[johanessen]

Banning top is the best option: Affects combo decks, prevent the stupid "combo" CB-Top and prevents players to loose time in games. But banning LED makes no sense, it's not that good if you don`t use it with cards that have sinergy with them, and with the loose of top will decrease it`s power.

I`d also ban Natural Order. If it`s Tinker banned why Natural Order isn`t? I hate stuppid timmy cards that win you games alone. It`s what Legacy is not supposed to be.

[Skeggi]

But banning LED makes no sense, it's not that good if you don`t use it with cards that have sinergy with them, and with the loose of top will decrease it`s power.

You obviously have no good combo players in your meta. LED makes ANT play 4x Black Lotus and 4x Demonic Tutor. Legacy ANT is much stronger than Vintage ANT because it has this trick. Legacy ANT beats any other combo deck, even if it comes from Vintage. I'm not just saying this, I actually tested it because I was wondering. Legacy is the fastest format with the most broken combo deck: ANT. Banning LED would stop it.

[DrJones]

Of the 15 decklists I posted, Lion's Eye Diamond is used in... none of them. Most probably, the lack of FoW would make some combo decks too stupid, but I argue that those decks are already stupid and shouldn't be used as an argument to keep FoW legal. FoW ideally would be replaced by less broken cards like Daze, Mindbreak Trap or new cards yet to come. Cards like Tendrils might need to be banned, but the end result would be a more balanced format overall.

The problem with Force of Will is that the historically best strategy in this game has always been playing a fast combo protected by counterspells and/or discard. Some of those decks wouldn't be as resilient if it weren't for Force of Will being so damn busted. Not giving those decks Pact of Negation/Force of Will would severely weaken them. Force of Will is not a good choice of a card to protect against them because it's one of the reasons those decks are so difficult to hate in the first place. We need other cards to stop fast combo. Cards like Chalice of the Void, Ethersworn Canonist, Mindbreak Trap, Leyline of the Void, etc. Some combo decks can be banned if they are too degenerate, but right now is damn too easy to build those decks.

We banned flash, ok. The very same strategy sprouted again in the form of reanimator. Only the actual combo changes everytime, the rest of the deck is the same. Combo + search + counterspells. It's the skeleton of the deck the one that is really effective against the format. These combo decks play the nuclear war with x-wings making sure the bomb doesn't miss the target, and all the other decks are playing the Napoleonic Wars. Don't you see that one single strategy is just much better than all the others? Don't you see the unfair advantage that allowing Fow gives to those decks? I'm pretty sure there are plenty of control elements printed in 15 years that would prevent combo from dominating. I'm pretty sure that if a combo deck would dominate so bad, it would be banned soon. But I also know VERY WELL that Force of Will has never stopped combo from dominating a format, because the most broken combo decks have always included four copies of that card.

[yankeedave]

Can I ask what decks you play DrJones?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Are you advocating banning Pact of Negation as well? Because combo can switch to Pact without too much loss of power, whereas control can't do the same.

[DrJones]

Can I ask what decks you play DrJones?

I've played almost every damn deck in the history of Competitive Magic, be it extended, vintage, legacy and standard. I don't say to ban Force of Will because I lose against it. I'm in favor of banning Force of Will because I care about game balance and I know Force of Will is the most broken card in the game, even more so than Balance, Mana Drain and Yagwmoth's Will. It's not easy to see it because Force of Will is a control card, while broken combo and aggro cards are far, far, easier to spot. Hell, at the time I had a really hard time telling people Hulk Flash was broken because everyone was saying that Force of Will could stop it.

Note that I know that I'm on the minority here. I know that I'm not going to convice any of you. I'm just explaining my concerns hoping that with some luck, R&D might read my reasoning and will try to address this problem. I don't want the game to break, I think the game can withstand the loss of Force of Will. And even if I'm mistaken, I know it can be easily fixed by just allowing Force to be played again. I know how was the metagame in extended before and after Force of Will, and I think extended was far better after the card went away. I know how awful and blue-centered has always been the eternal formats, and I feel that most of the problems have been due to decks with Force of Will being much better than decks without them.

Are you advocating banning Pact of Negation as well? Because combo can switch to Pact without too much loss of power, whereas control can't do the same.

Of course. Pact of Negation's purpose was to control the price of Force of Will by allowing certain decks to play that card instead, but the decks that could make use of Pact of Negation are not the ones I would like to strenghten, knowing that their strategy is already the strongest in the game.

[sunshine]

...Cards like Tendrils might need to be banned, but the end result would be a more balanced format overall.

It sounds to me that you really just have a problem with combo in general. Banning FoW would probably not result in the banning of Tendrils, but in the banning of LED, Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, etc. It's not Tendrils that necessitates FoW, but fast mana. As long as we have access to fast mana, FoW is a necessary (?evil?) part of the format.

Half the reason the combo decks you mentioned run FoW in the first place is to counter opposing FoWs, Without the fear of free counters we'll see a much faster and more resilient (made more resilient by the fact that their number one concern is no longer present) breed of combo decks that would be far more degenerate than anything we have now. I don't really like the idea legacy becoming Belcher.format and I find the thought of getting rid of all the fast mana we have just as unpleasant.

Regardless of how they chose to do it, WotC simply could not just ban FoW by itself (of even Fow + PoN). The resulting ban list would need to be so long and sweeping to keep things balanced that I really just don't think WotC would do it, at least not responsibly. Can you imagine how much testing it would require to make sure things still held together after banning something that essentially holds the format together?

[MattH]

In addition to Pact, combo like Reanimator can also just run things like Dispel, Duress, Thoughtseize, maybe even Spell Pierce. The list of ways to force through your combo is long and varied.

Apparently DrJones missed the fact that the only thing keeping the FoW-using combo deck from losing to the Duress-using combo deck was a bad Ad Nauseum flip. The randomness of a shuffle is all that stood between FoW winning and LED winning.

[Mayk0l]

This.

I've always said that when Combo gets too strong, LED should be the first card to go. However, now with the printing of Spell Pierce, I'm not sure if combo would get out of hand if you get rid of SDT.

Counter Spells don't stop Combo, they slow them down. You need either a clock + mulitple counterspells or a lock like Countertop + clock. Combo is that sick.

ANT is the strongest deck in the format. Banning Force of Will (why are we even discussing this? My god) will only empower combo.