[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[junkdiver]

Correct, you would finish dredging before putting any Narco triggers on the stack. This would apply for a single dredge (i.e. replacing your draw for the turn) or multiple dredges resulting from Study/Breakthrough/whaterver - triggered abilities, such as Narcomoeba's, go on the stack the next time a player would receive priority.

Ok thanks very much for the answer.

Just to be 100% clear on the last part, if I have 4 dredges because of breakthrough and I hit a narco in each dredge, I do not put the narco triggers on the stack until all 4 dredges have completed? (And this is because no one receives priority until after all 4 draws have finished?)

[SlopeeJ]

that is correct nothing happens until the spell resolves. So for example if I hit a narco on each of the 4 dredges I pull it out of my graveyard and tell my opp they are going to trigger after I am done dredging. This way I don't forget or get confused or what ever.

So after breakthrough resolves you would say 3 narco triggers are on the stack and pass priority

[junkdiver]

that is correct nothing happens until the spell resolves. So for example if I hit a narco on each of the 4 dredges I pull it out of my graveyard and tell my opp they are going to trigger after I am done dredging. This way I don't forget or get confused or what ever.

So after breakthrough resolves you would say 3 narco triggers are on the stack and pass priority

Thanks for clarifying!

Could that be dangerous to pull them out I guess because they could stifle a trigger and then you would have to remember where it was in your graveyard and put it back exactly right there? Say you forgot where each one was or whatever would a judge maybe give you a warning or something?

[SlopeeJ]

I don't think so because technically you can put the cards in your graveyard in any order while the spell is resolving, I think........

I'm not sure but it gets confusing for me especially with my graveyard across the whole table. Especially if your dredging 20 plus cards from a breakthrough. I've never had a problem with an opp doing that but I guess they probably could

[junkdiver]

I don't think so because technically you can put the cards in your graveyard in any order while the spell is resolving, I think........

I'm not sure but it gets confusing for me especially with my graveyard across the whole table. Especially if your dredging 20 plus cards from a breakthrough. I've never had a problem with an opp doing that but I guess they probably could

Yeah I am with ya man, it gets hard to manage all the cards and keep order. It would be interesting to get everyone's take on the "physical" aspects of dredge. How you lay out your graveyard so you know what's in it, how you keep track of nacromoeba's triggers and where they are in the yard etc? Anyone have any good tips ;) ?

[(nameless one)]

Noob Alert:

Here's a noob question: If I play Breakthrough and draw 4 cards, can I trigger Dredge for each draw? (If I have all 4 Trolls in the yard, can I dredge 24 cards?)

[Felidae]

Yes you can, but the word "trigger" seems out of place here, because as far as I know Dredge isn't a triggerd ability (otherwise you could Stifle it).

[SlopeeJ]

yea that is correct, there are no triggers happening. dredging lets you draw the card in your graveyard instead of drawing the card from your library. So with breakthrough you draw 4 cards, you can replace one of the draws with a dredge (drawing the card with the dredge ability) or can do all 4.

So yes if you have 4 trolls in your graveyard, you can draw all 4 trolls dredging 6 cards each time for 24 cards.



Also wanted to point out you don't have to say what you are dredging for each draw, say you only have 1 troll when you caste breakthrough but then dredge into more you can use the new dredgers. So for your second draw you can use the imp that you got from your troll dredge... IF that makes sense

[(nameless one)]

Awesome!

Thank you very much!

[drawer]

I have my deck on the right side of my mat about halfway up. I lay my graveyard out from right to left in the order the cards are dredged, stacked on top of each other so you can see the casting cost and set symbol. Then after about 20 cards I start a new row. When I hit Narcomoebas I usually just pull them up about halfway so they are obvious but still in order.

[linux-ll-]

On the play:
If I have in hand: LED + Cephalid Coliseum + 5 Cards (two Trolls).

Can I play the land + LED, pass the turn...
in my Drawstep crack LED, dredge 6 cards and use the mana for Cephalid Coliseum and dredge more?

[Waikiki]

sure

[BreathWeapon]

2nded,

Muradin's build is really, really good in a metagame with out Storm or Reanimator. Obv. he's prepared himself for Storm post-board altho', I doubt it's enough to win the match up; it's probably better to run Leyline of the Void for Reanimator and the mirror if you want to "cheap shot" a match up, because Reanimator has to invest a lot of resource and time to deal with Leyline of the Void compared to Storm dealing with a counter spell (which it's already designed to do).

@Adan

The Dread Return targets aren't there to deal with graveyard specific hate, they're there to deal with non graveyard specific hate from Reanimator and Lands - it's the right call considering the deck's lack of speed compared to LED Dredge.

[Muradin]

On the play:
If I have in hand: LED + Cephalid Coliseum + 5 Cards (two Trolls).

Can I play the land + LED, pass the turn...
in my Drawstep crack LED, dredge 6 cards and use the mana for Cephalid Coliseum and dredge more?

No you can't do that.
That's because in your draw step you can't do anything before drawing the card. Otherwise playing Ad Nauseam from 2 LED's would also still work. This definitely doesn't work as far as I know.

[YigSnakeDaddy]

Here's my current build, do you guys think the sideboard is versatile and powerful enough to handle most threats? My meta is constanly changing so I can't really make it too one-sided. Chain of Vapor and Ancient Grudge have to stay, so much is sure. I'm thinking Ravenous Trap for mirror and against Reanimator (without the mulling for Leylines), Wispmare's purpose against said Leyline and other enchantment heavy decks should explain itself too. Iona's in because every now and then there's elves, merfolk or goblins around, sometimes even vampires.
Terastodon's the newcomer. I think I could use it to handle non-leyline problems or in the absence of such, use it to feed my bridges.

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
2 tarnished citadel

4 breakthrough
4 cabal therapy
4 careful study
3 dread return

4 golgari grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 golgari thug
3 darkblast

4 bridge from below

4 ichorid
4 narcomoeba
4 putrid imp
1 flame-kin zealot


sideboard:

4 chain of vapor
4 ancient grudge
2 ravenous trap
2 wispmare
1 ancestor's chosen
1 terastodon
1 iona, shield of emeria



Sorry, Cephalid Coliseum got lost in the copy/paste process

[(nameless one)]

why no Coliseum?

[whienot]

Has anyone seen the deck Tommy Kolowith is playing at the Indy 5k?

4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
1x Golgari Thug
4x Putrid Imp
4x Brainstorm
4x Careful Study
4x Hapless Researcher
4x Force of Will
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Bridge from Below
2x Dread Return
1x Flame-kin Zealot
1x Sphinx of Lost Truths
4x Underground Sea
4x Cephalid Coliseum
5x black fetch

SB
4x Exhume
4x Chain of Vapor
3x Leyline
1x Iona
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Realm Razor
1x ???? Terastodon, maybe.

Not sure how he's doing it, but he's 5-1 right now.

[kicks_422]

Well, it seems to be regular LEDless Dredge with brainstorms over Breakthroughs and Hapless Researchers over Tireless Tribe. Honestly, I was looking for Wonder the moment I saw the Underground Seas, and I was disappointed not to see them.

Why have a transformational board that ALSO uses the graveyard?

[Ozymandias]

I ran the deck below at Knight Ware in LA on Sunday, and I finished 3/53, losing only in the t4 to an unorthodox permutation of Eva Green.

Eyeless Dredge
Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Woodfall Primus
Enchantments
4 Bridge From Below
Sorceries
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City Of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
Sideboard:

1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Flame-kin Zealot
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain Of Vapor
2 Ray of Revelation.

I am okay with just cutting the rays and an FKZ for 3 Nature's Claim, but the only card I would cut from the MD would be, maybe, maybe Iona, but she just steals games in my experience.

[junkdiver]

I ran the deck below at Knight Ware in LA on Sunday, and I finished 3/53, losing only in the t4 to an unorthodox permutation of Eva Green.

Eyeless Dredge
Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Woodfall Primus
Enchantments
4 Bridge From Below
Sorceries
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City Of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
Sideboard:

1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Flame-kin Zealot
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain Of Vapor
2 Ray of Revelation.

I am okay with just cutting the rays and an FKZ for 3 Nature's Claim, but the only card I would cut from the MD would be, maybe, maybe Iona, but she just steals games in my experience.

What about Woodfall Primus? Have you found him to be good or bad? How often do you "persist" him to kill a second permanent and keep him on the table?

I have wondered sometimes if he wouldn't be better as Angel of Despair because she hit's Blazing Archon and can be ichorid food if needed, but my experience with primus is admittedly very limited. If you constantly find yourself using his CIP ability more than once obviously he is the better choice, but if not maybe Angel?