[Deck] Zoo

[KrzyMoose]

i would like to comment that i have not tested steppe lynx but if i imagine in the mirror its not great and i would rather have kird ape.
lynx is obviously superior in games where you're winning or have an unanswered KoR, but at that point even a kird ape would be winning.
lynx doesn't block - obv which is a liability in the mirror.

You should sideboard out Lynx in the mirror. You should also sideboard out Kird Ape in the mirror.

Lynx is better than Ape, at the moment. Both are bad in the mirror, but it doesn't matter, because you should be SB'ing them both out.

*edit* Also, it's a mistake to be playing less than 2 Sylvan Library.

[sauce]

the library is not good in multiples, and if you have one in your opening hand and then draw the 2nd one, its basically a dead draw.
i dont want to ever topdeck it when i need a burn spell, blocker, etc. playing one is not a mistake.
tom ross (5k winner) also only played one.
i don't rely on the library, if i get it - great.

i think its obviously way better if you are playing vs control decks all day. if my meta had more blue decks, id consider playing 2.
in an aggro meta its a mistake to play 2.

[Rizso]

I find that Sylvan Library wins the game in the mirror for example. Sylvan wins alot of games for me, especially against people with swords to plowshares as their spot removal.

[sauce]

I find that Sylvan Library wins the game in the mirror for example. Sylvan wins alot of games for me, especially against people with swords to plowshares as their spot removal.

that can be a testiment to card quality, im sure sensei's divining top would be better in the mirror than library.
if two decks are identical and play skill is comparable, he with more card quality will usually win.

[Rizso]

The top needs mana and sylvan can draw extra cards. With Helix and Jitte from the board in the aggro mirror The extra life can be trades for more cards wich do happends.

[KrzyMoose]

The top needs mana and sylvan can draw extra cards. With Helix and Jitte from the board in the aggro mirror The extra life can be trades for more cards wich do happends.

Incidentally, you should be sideboarding out Helix in the mirror.

[Rizso]

Why may i ask?

[KrzyMoose]

Why may i ask?

Helix is pretty much the worst card in the deck. In the mirror, the cards you're worried most about are the big guys - Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary. Helix doesn't deal with either of those, without 2-for-1'ing yourself. (Well, unless your opponent is terrible). The life is pretty much irrelevant. In fact, you should be bringing in 2 Swords to Plowshares. The Zoo mirror is all about who has the last big guy standing, and it's really awkward to be holding a Lightning Helix when your opponent has a 5/5 Knight or 4/5 Tarmogoyf.

You keep Bolt in since it's only one mana, and you still care enought about Wild Nacatl and Lavamancer.

This is also why you should be 'boarding out Kird Ape/Steppe Lynx. Ape, especially, can't attack through a Wild Nacatl and gets outclassed very quickly. Both of those cards die to every removal spell in the deck.

It depends on how much of the mirror you expect to see, but you should have at least four cards (I already run one Ranger maindeck, so I only bring in three cards) to bring in. Note, however, that these four cards should also be good against other decks.

Right now, I bring in 2 Swords to Plowshares and a second Ranger of Eos. Both Swords and Ranger are really strong in other matchups. If there's a lot more of the mirror in your meta, you can bring in more stuff.

*edit* If you only have 4 cards to bring in, but you run both 4 Ape/Lynx and some number of Helix, I recommend boarding out the Ape/Lynx. Unless you want to bring in Jitte (which you shouldn't, as I explain below) for some reason, in which case board out the Helix.

I do not recommend bringing in Jitte, however. It's okay to bring in one, since that at least makes your opponent respect it. But it's bad for the same reasons that Ape and Lynx are bad. The plan in the mirror is to kill all of their guys, anyway, so Jitte very rarely makes any difference. That is, you can never equip it and expect that creature to survive combat - it's a waste of both mana, a card, and, usually, a turn. (Obviously, sometimes you get lucky and you can get an active Jitte, which is why it's okay to have one. But that's pretty much just variance).

It's really useful to pay attention to other formats, since this is pretty common knowledge in Extended, and has been relevant in the Zoo/Red-based aggro matchup in a lot of past formats.

*edit 2* Just wanted to note that I don't mean to be or come of as condescending.

[Nelis]

Did you even read the post I made right above yours? It clearly states I ran a list of Zoo and even 2-3 posts ago I said I ran Richard Bland's list from the GP, so go ahead I will take a minute to let you look it up so you can tell me i am running steppe lynx and scared of 'mid' game (which I actually said was "lategame" there chief)....good?....congrats on reading...

I will agree that Eos seems clunky and slow. Other than goyf, what guys are going to play that are going to scare the war Monk? Knight never really did anything for me. I think you need lands that do things to play him, other wise he is just a giant idiot on the board. FoD might be better, don't know, didnt test him, but I think those 2 spots in my list clearly need to be something with more umpf...

Between Madrid, Indy, St.Louis, and Dallas, there were 8 Zoo decks in the top 16s.There were a total 5 FoD played, so that should say something about the card if good players are not even using it...

I've looked up your list (which I indeed overlooked) and it doesn't differ much from what I play. This leads me to conclude that you absolutely don't know what you are talking about at all. But I had that confirmed already if you have to ask these kind of things:

This is kind of awkward. What is keeping them from swinging back with the War Monk, thus negating the 2 damange you just dealt? You need to expand a bit more on this statement to have it make sense...

In the list I ran, the 2 cards I would consider changing are the knights...maybe FoD fits there, maybe Aven Mindcensor. I just don't like having to sink the mana into FoD to make it amazing...

This is what let me conclude you're actually afraid of midgame:

The deck is good not because it does broken things. Not one of the spells in the deck are "broken", it is just uber-consistant. I feel like running this janky cards like the mystic, boa, FoD, thoctar, etc you are making the deck run more and more into the mid-game and it doesn't want to do that. Running < 4 chain lightning also seems wrong.

Now, there might be something wrong with my interpretation and/or assumption skills but I can read.

Another thing you said in that "choosing fod cause you draw a lot of land" just seems really awkward. You can't pick a card based on how you are running luck wise. FoD takes a lot of mana to work. What are you going to do after playing it turn 1? Attack for 1 and play a goyf? Isn't just playing Kird Ape better because it will always hit for 2 on turn 2 for 1 mana where FoD needs 2 mana to hit for 2? You might say it is a good late game card, but if this deck goes to the late game you have probably lost. Reading your report, it seemed like you played against some pretty sub-optimal opponents and then come offer like the deck is insane or something.

You haven't even tested FoD so I wonder how you know it's bad? I pick my cards when they have proven their worth to me. If other players come to different conclusions that's fine by me as long as they base their conclusion on their own real findings.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

But its not optimal. And I am sure any serious discussion about the deck would not include a 2/1 for 2 where its 2 abilites are as avg as possible in this format. Zoo is already made to beat blue decks so the islandwalk is about as irrelvant as possible. The regeneration is also average because this deck is built to attack and that is mostly a defensive ability.

The deck is good not because it does broken things. Not one of the spells in the deck are "broken", it is just uber-consistant. I feel like running this janky cards like the mystic, boa, FoD, thoctar, etc you are making the deck run more and more into the mid-game and it doesn't want to do that. Running < 4 chain lightning also seems wrong. Another thing you said in that "choosing fod cause you draw a lot of land" just seems really awkward. You can't pick a card based on how you are running luck wise. FoD takes a lot of mana to work. What are you going to do after playing it turn 1? Attack for 1 and play a goyf? Isn't just playing Kird Ape better because it will always hit for 2 on turn 2 for 1 mana where FoD needs 2 mana to hit for 2? You might say it is a good late game card, but if this deck goes to the late game you have probably lost. Reading your report, it seemed like you played against some pretty sub-optimal opponents and then come offer like the deck is insane or something.

I am just making some counter-points about your claims and having a discussion about it...you seem pretty insecure since you just jumped all over it as if it was attack on your dog or something...geez, some people.

Chain Lightning so weak, idk if you know. I hardly ever wanna see the card, and with Zoo being one of the most faced decks out there right now, it makes it even weaker. FOD isn't weak at all. The only different is that you get one less toughness early on, and if you ever draw one late, you make an 8/8, and 8/8s are good, idk if you know.

And now you're seriously bashing my report? I've top 8ed with this deck more times than you've played games of Magic.

And Zoo is also an amazing midrange deck as well. Idk if you've read the primer, or any posts from a while back, but it works just as efficiently because you're still drawing the most efficient creatures in the format, AND the most efficient burn in the format. You also see people in recent pages running Ranger of Eos, so whynot call them out on that as well, it makes the deck more midrange, even though it's straightup good.

[stu55]

So the Loxodon <3 Neils (has anything good come out of Netherlands or the boondocks anyway?) love fest aside (seriously, t8 more than I have played...playing since '95 I seriously doubt that)


I am just saying, I rather listen to pros that did well with the deck in real events and not some randoms that decide to run river boa in the deck.


I just think I rather have a card that is more of an impact card when I cast it then a random dude that just appears and usually dies immediately.

[sauce]

the upside to figure of destiny is very high. he is great at every point in the game.
this is why i play 1, if you do not know how good he is, you should play test with it.
edit: it may be correct to play 2 or 3 like a few people on the thread have done.
plus, under a blood moon he does not suffer.

[nodahero]

Not to break up your little love fest going on bet.l.. for christ sake.,. River Boa was one card in one persons deck, He explained why he ran it and admitted it may not have been ideal. Just because he enjoys "showing off" a little dosn't make him a bad player. What if the only decks he played that whole day were temp thresh? Then the Boa would be trully sick... Block goyf all day... O your goyf went plowing? Why don't I come say hi for a second?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

The shop where i play actually has the most competitive metagame in Southeast USA if i do say so myself. We get 30 people weekly to play Legacy. We hold PTQs. Some of our players, oh yeah Probasco, worked on his 2nd place GP Chicago Counterbalance list there. Another one of our player top 8ed a SCG 5k. So please don't lecture me on where I'm from or where i place.

But seriously I'm done. Welcome to my ignore list stu!

[Pulp_Fiction]

Nice, and he deserves it, idiot. You also forgot to mention that you have to play against the best combo player in the south WOOOOT!!! sorry, its st. patricks day and i am drunk as hell. BUT ersiou;y , this thread is pure comedy gold, keep it coming!

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Nice, and he deserves it, idiot. You also forgot to mention that you have to play against the best combo player in the south WOOOOT!!! sorry, its st. patricks day and i am drunk as hell. BUT ersiou;y , this thread is pure comedy gold, keep it coming!

But seriously, you're one of the best combo players i know. Well, the best i know haha. I would learn to play combo, but it feels like homework trying to learn Doomsday stacks

[Pulp_Fiction]

But seriously, you're one of the best combo players i know. Well, the best i know haha. I would learn to play combo, but it feels like homework trying to learn Doomsday stacks

Ty, it is basically homework! In order to play DD right you have to put in a lot of hours just goldfishing. What actually helps if you do want to learn how to play, put a basic Hybrid list together and print off the DD stacks and play the deck with the stacks beside you. But unless you play NLS, you really don't need to know more than about 4 DD stacks. But goldfishing is the key!

[Kird Ape]

I'm really glad that you two managed to shut down some good conversation about Zoo to carry on about some mindless nonsense. I'd really expect a little more from the two guys that wrote the original primer.

Post up a picture of your river boa so we can all hold hands are stare at it.

I don't care about combo and doomsday stacks, WTF does that have anything at all to do with zoo? You both have stifled a great discussion on furthering Zoo, thanks from all the Zoo players that read this thread daily.

[Nelis]

Helix is pretty much the worst card in the deck. In the mirror, the cards you're worried most about are the big guys - Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary. Helix doesn't deal with either of those, without 2-for-1'ing yourself. (Well, unless your opponent is terrible). The life is pretty much irrelevant. In fact, you should be bringing in 2 Swords to Plowshares. The Zoo mirror is all about who has the last big guy standing, and it's really awkward to be holding a Lightning Helix when your opponent has a 5/5 Knight or 4/5 Tarmogoyf.

You keep Bolt in since it's only one mana, and you still care enough about Wild Nacatl and Lavamancer.

I find this very interesting. I would say you would want to keep Helixes in. That way you can get rid of opponents Nacatls and even an occasional Tarmogoyf. This way you have more chance of getting your Nacatls trough and you can keep your STPs and PTEs for their big creatures. There might be situations where you otherwise have to use PTE and STPs for their smaller creatures.

Why would life gain be irrellevant in the mirror? I'm very interested in your thoughts behind that statement.

@Kird Ape. If there's anyone to blame for shutting down the conversation it's Stu55. He has been a bit of a dick.

[Tacosnape]

Boarding out Helix in the mirror is pretty close to the worst idea I've ever heard. While I see the logic behind it, there are going to be a lot of times where -both- players have a large guy standing. Having Helix lets you win by trading swings. It's a -huge- swing in a damage race. There are other cards to board out if you actually have things worth boarding in.