Has anybody tested fork maindaeck to fight counters? It is not absolutely dead against other decks and can destroy a single fow, wich is the main problem of the deck
You can't really directly fight fow- you don't have the slots. You need to run probabilities, bait counters, and rely on the deck's extreme speed. Opening on ETW doesn't hurt either. If you did want to fight it, Pyroblast or Guttural Response would be better anyway- Blast because it adds to Storm, Response because it imprints better and can be cast off a spare ESG/SSG.
Yes, you are probably wright. Last year I played belcher in a 70 people tournament, with 3 pyroblast maindeck but i was unlucky and didnīt see one in all tournament. I went 4-3 losing to canadian (almost unwinable), ant (due to echoing truth maindeck) and muc (due to echoing truth maindeck again!!). I was so disappointed that forgot about belcher for a while, metagame was full of canadians and pyroblast didnīt help me. But now in the current metagame i think it is a great choice, because any opponent has to mull to fow. I thin the worst slot is manamorhpose, and i am trying to fit something better, but i don't find it.Originally Posted by Ozymandias
Pulp Fiction, tries Blood Moon in Manamorphose slot and works for him.
It works pretty well. Ravaging most of the format!
@soiber2000: It helps when you actually read the thread, or even look 3-4 posts in advance to your own post.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
@Pulp_Fiction: I read the thread, Gocho is the one who has said about your idea, but if I don't say anything about blood moon is: first, because I find it out of place and second because I haven't tested it and can't say if it works or not.
On the other hand, I'm trying to help improving this deck and others with my expirience, which is not short, and I don't think you have to say this, because it sounds a bit derogatory, and I also feel that is not necessary.
I'm still trying to decide how I feel about blood moon. I certainly see where its benefits are, but at the same time I feel its too defensive of a move for an offensive deck. Not to mention, blood moon doesn't touch force. I'mg gonna play test with it a little more.
So, just got back in from the Old Skool tournament and am quite happy having won!
I decided to play Belcher, the RG version, with Street Wraiths and Manamorphose, with Blood Moon and Telemin Performance in the Sideboard, as Tom wanted to borrow one of my Goyf's, so I didn't play Team America, which I am testing at the moment!
I went 4-1 on the day, with a very varied field. Glen, the TO, didn't really have the numbers for Legacy or Extended, so he combined the 2 and we had 10 players in the end, 5 with recognisable Legacy decks, 4 Extended Decks and 1 Coalition deck from the Phyrexia VS the Coalition! He was making up numbers and was only playing for fun! Amazingly, he managed to take a match!
Anyways, onto the action!
Round 1 and I am paired against Tom playing Canadian Thresh - 0-2 - Why do I have to face a control deck first round? Good news is, its the only one in the room and as we are playing 5 rounds with no top 8, I feel like this is probably the best time to lose to it!
Round 2 and its Slivers, but not Counterslivers or Meathooks, but just an 82 card deck with no Sideboard! 2-1 - I Mulliganed to 5 in the first game and didn't see a win con til very late!
Round 3 - Glen playing Treasure Hunt Lands using Lightning Storm as his win con! So he has 7 non land cards and 53 lands! It really was the antithesis of my deck! 2-0 - I had heard him annouce Treasure Hunt in an earlier so figured that he was either running no creatures or, if he was, they would be awesome, so went for the Telemin Performance win and he didn't have any creatures! 2nd game, I Belched on the first turn with no lands in my deck!
Round 4 - Hughes with Zoo - 2-0 - I belched in one game and ran him over with Goblins in game 2!
Round 5 - At this stage there are only 2 of us on 9 points, so its us 2 for the Winner takes all!
Simon playing Sligh - 2-0 - I make 12 gobbos on turn 1 and ride them home. Game 2, I mulligan to 5 and keep a hand without a win con, but draw a Empty the Warrens on my second turn, make 12 gobbos and have to race the Sligh deck, as I am already on 13 life. His turn he makes a Keldon Marauders and pings me for one. I attack for 11, leaving 1 goblin behind to block the Marauder. This turned out the be the best plan, as he had enough to kill me if I had gone all in. As it was, he had to burn the blocker and get in with his dude. Next turn, I left a guy behind again, and this stopped him killing me with a Factory!
I WIN! 7 packs and a nice feeling. I decide to crack my packs, as they are all Worldwake and I hit the Jace, the Mind Sculpter! I shout across to the dealer and he offers me Ģ30 for it, and as that is what I have paid out for today, i snap his hand off!
A brilliant day and many thanks to Glen for running another excellent tourney!
Dave
"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted." - John Lennon
I went 3-1 at my local tourny today with belcher. It was DEF the wrong call for the meta, but somehow I pulled it out. Round 1 I played Landstill and beat it 2-0. Played around daze and force to get the win. Round 2 I played Ninjastill packing forces. Won that matchup 2-0. Round three I played Surpeme Blue and thats where things got bad. They maindeck Force, daze, spell snare, chalice, EE, and standstill. If there was a way it was physically possible for me to win this please enlighten me. Haha, I actually won one match, but couldn't do it twice. Round 4 I played u/w tempo (also packing force) and beat it 2-0. Despite playing against force every round I still pulled out 3 wins. Goes to show how stupid awesome this deck can be.
This deck seems fun to play, but do people actually advocate taking it to bigger tournaments? It seems like there are very few opportunities to outplay your opponents, and matchups are either awesome or horrible. I have play against this deck many times, but I have never played with it. Just wondering what people think about its validity at 8+ round tournaments. Thanks!
@Patrunkenphat: this and Dredge, are pretty much the definitions of the Glassjaw deck; if people are fully prepared for it, you'll go 0-2 drop; if not, then chances are you'll be at the higher tables all day. If Belcher ever got something that made it consist6ent turn 1-2, then we'd we weeping in joy. :D
I love this deck to pieces. Sadly, I ALWAYS get paired against Control in the first round and end up in the loser's bracket all day at the larger tournaments I take it too. Sometimes I win out, and sometimes I dont. But it can be frustrating to play this deck against the wrong field!
Dave
"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted." - John Lennon
Is anyone interested in helping test the viability of a no-land belcher? Its just hard for me to find testing partners atm that are happy to play 100 games against a Belcher deck :p I believe its briefly been brought up before but I wanted to revisit it. This is not a primer or something, I don't claim to have an optimised list. I'm just sharing ideas as belcher hasn't changed much in a few years - perhaps we need to question some staples - such as land :D
Why no Land?
-Primarily, it means when you activate Belcher, you win. No whiffing calculations required. No land frees up a number of places in the deck, the main 5-6 being land + land grant. This leads me to a secondary reason to drop lands; being able to drop Land Grant.
What is wrong with Land Grant?
-Running 4 Land Grant can lead to more hands that require mulliganing, while simultaneously not doing enough. While I believe Land Grant is a necessary evil in 1-2 land lists (and Storm lists), its inherently average. Two examples are any hand with Land Grant + Two Land or 1 Land & 2+ Grants. If you could replace those 6 cards with accelerants or broader tutors, those hands then become better. For a deck that relies heavily on mulling into a combo, this goes a way to helping improve its consistency.
-With Land Grant + Land, you have used two cards to net you a +1 mana. Thats one of the least efficient mana-producers in the deck. I understand its re-usable, however I want to go off as soon as possible, I don't need to be producing mana for three turns. Chrome Mox is the same efficiency, however Chrome Mox doesn't increase Charbelcher whiff so I'll let it slide for now. Chrome Mox can't be Wastelanded either, which lets face it is rampant in Legacy and has been known to randomnly screw Combo players.
-Land Grant gives your opponent so much information! They can see exactly when you can/can't go off and can play accodingly. This is a disadvantage on varying levels depending on your matchup, but it is never negligible. I don't need to go into too many specifics but game 1 lets say they don't know what you're playing. Sure you might play a Lotus Petal or something firsts turn and they might put you on some kind of combo, but its not the same as giving them a free cavity inspection of your grip. Players will play in their best interest accodingly, which is something you can prevent by not playing Land Grant.
Why no Empty the Warrens?
-A potential SB kill condition, I don't want Empty to the the focus of the deck at all for the number of times I've randomnly lost despite making a bunch of tokens. There are a lot of hosers for this such as EE, Rhox War Monk, Tabernacle, Pyroclasm, Moat, etc. Yes there are hosers for everything blah blah, but for me Goblins have been much slower and less consistent than a Belcher kill. After you drop the gobbos you need at least two more turns to win. This is too slow and thus I want to drop it. Also since I have no Land Grant, the Storm on this badboy is usually -1 to boot.
Sample list:
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Manamorphose
4 Spoils
4 Street Wraith
3 Serum Powder
1 Infernal Tutor
The weakest card here is ESG, but we *need* 0 mana accelerants. This deck still requires colourless in a number of its spells. There is the potential to use Spanish Inquisition tech here and Summoning Pact into ESG; that is another 2-card '+1' however you don't have to reveal your hand to use Pact. It does have a different potentially worse drawback, but I digress... ESG can also be imprinted/exiled for mana for Xantid Swarm out of the board.
Seething Song usually does what you need it to. Sure sometimes you'll have 5 and only be able to cast Belcher but not activate it ('wasting' 1 mana in the process). However it is still playable and will otherwise help you get to 7 mana in one turn often, or else serves as Chrome Mox food.
I suppose it could be said that the likes of Spoils+Street+Serum clog your deck as much (if not more than) land grant + land do. If & when better cards come along/are tested in these slots they might be dropped. It definitely has its weaknesses, as sometimes you'll top deck into a Serum or lack black mana etc, but all-in-all I seem to be able to off very quickly quite consistently with this. At least enough that I believe a no-land build is worth investigating.
The problems of this approach may prove more apparant in Games 2 & 3, where typically games might last longer / you have to fight through hate. I have a provisional SB atm of:
-4 Ingot Chewer
-4 Xantid Swarms
-4 Unmask
-3 Empty the Warrens
Anyways if anyone has tried something along these lines or has opinions let me know :)
Playing: Merfolk, Dredge
Working on: G/W Aggro, MBC
Learning: Pact SI
In storage: Enchantress
Is anyone interested in helping test the viability of a no-land belcher? Its hard for me to find testing partners atm that are happy to play 100 games against a Belcher deck :p I believe its briefly been brought up before but I wanted to revisit it. This is not a primer or something, I don't claim to have an optimised list. I'm just sharing ideas as belcher hasn't changed much in a few years - perhaps we need to question some staples - such as land :D
Why no Land?
-Primarily, no Lands means when you activate Belcher, you win. No whiffing calculations required. It frees up a number of places in the deck. This leads me to a secondary reason to drop lands; being able to drop Land Grant.
What is wrong with Land Grant?
-Running 4 Land Grant can lead to more hands that require mulliganing, while simultaneously not doing enough. While I believe Land Grant is a necessary evil in 1-2 land lists (and Storm lists), its inherently average. Two examples are any hand with Land Grant + Two Land or 1 Land & 2+ Grants. If you could replace those 6 cards with accelerants or broader tutors, those hands then become better. For a deck that relies heavily on mulling into a combo, this goes a way to helping improve its consistency.
-With Land Grant + Land, you have used two cards to net you a +1 mana. Thats one of the least efficient mana-producers in the deck. I understand its re-usable, however I want to go off as soon as possible, I don't need to be producing mana for three turns. Chrome Mox is the same efficiency, however Chrome Mox doesn't increase Charbelcher whiff so I'll let it slide for now. Chrome Mox can't be Wastelanded either, which lets face it is rampant in Legacy and has been known to randomnly screw Combo players.
-Land Grant gives your opponent so much information! They can see exactly when you can/can't go off and can play accodingly. This is a disadvantage on varying levels depending on your matchup, but it is never negligible. Players will play in their best interest according to the information they have - something I wish to deny them until its too late.
Why no Empty the Warrens?
-A potential SB kill condition, I don't want Empty to the the focus of the deck at all. We've all been there when you've made a bunch of tokens and still lost. There are a lot of hosers for this such as EE, Rhox War Monk, Tabernacle, Pyroclasm, Moat, etc. Yes there are hosers for everything (zomg Pithing Needle on Belcher owns) blah blah, but for me Goblins have been much slower and less consistent than a Belcher kill. After you drop the gobbos you need at least two more turns to win. This is too slow and thus I want to drop it. Also since I have no Land Grant, the Storm on this badboy is usually -1 to boot.
Sample list:
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Manamorphose
4 Spoils
4 Street Wraith
3 Serum Powder
1 Infernal Tutor
The weakest card on paper ESG, but we need 0 mana accelerants and its been fine in testing. This deck still requires colourless in a number of its spells. There is the potential to use Spanish Inquisition tech here and Summoning Pact into ESG; that is another 2-card '+1' however you don't have to reveal your hand to use Pact. It does have a different potentially worse drawback, but I digress... ESG can also be imprinted/exiled for mana for Xantid Swarm out of the board.
Seething Song usually does what you need it to. Sure sometimes you'll have 5 and only be able to cast Belcher but not activate it ('wasting' 1 mana in the process). However it is still playable and will otherwise help you get to 7 mana in one turn often, or else serves as Chrome Mox food.
I suppose it could be said that the likes of Spoils+Street+Serum clog your deck as much (if not more than) land grant + land do. If & when better cards come along/are tested in these slots they might be dropped. It definitely has its weaknesses, as sometimes you'll top deck into a Serum or lack black mana etc, but all-in-all I seem to be able to off very quickly quite consistently with this. At least enough that I believe a no-land build is worth investigating.
As far as playing the deck, most of the time you see a Serum Powder, you mulligan (there have been hands when I could go off with just the 6 ignoring the Powder). Anything without a Belcher or Tutor/Cyclers I mulligan. Things get tricky when you have like 2 Street Wraith, LED, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Manamorphose, ESG. I'd probably keep that hand and just try to something with my 3 'draw' spells and maybe 1-2 turns. Anyways this is a Belcher thread so I don't need to go into specifics - everyone knows how this badboy works.
The problems of this 'no land' approach may prove more apparant in Games 2 & 3, where typically games might last longer / you have to fight through hate. I have a provisional SB atm of:
-4 Ingot Chewer
-4 Xantid Swarms
-4 Unmask
-3 Empty the Warrens
Anyways if anyone has tried something along these lines or has opinions let me know :)
Playing: Merfolk, Dredge
Working on: G/W Aggro, MBC
Learning: Pact SI
In storage: Enchantress
Why You worry so much about the possibility to have 3 of 5/6 cards in Your starting hand? This is possiblle only in theory and in practice they usually are not worse than hands without win condition.
I listed many reasons why I wanted to test dropping those 6 cards. The example you list is one of the weaker ones I agree. Fact remains it is not purely 'theory'; while it may be a small % chance, I have drawn those hands before on more than one occasion. Popiezhius: What reasons are there to include Land Grant & 2-Lands over other tutors/mana producers? I think they are suboptimal thats all.
Playing: Merfolk, Dredge
Working on: G/W Aggro, MBC
Learning: Pact SI
In storage: Enchantress
I think if you are going to play no-land belcher than it would only be playable over SI if you could consistently get a faster clock. Whats your goldfish been like? +60% turn 1?
I'm going to guess that its just going to be like SI that loses harder to force, having to invest more cards to go off than SI and likely being slower. I think its best to stick to EtW and Wish, and Blood Moon in the MD or Board. Otherwise, there isn't really a good reason to play this over SI.
EDIT:
Btw I'm always down to build a faster glass cannon. Count me in on testing if you can start pushing your turn 1's past 70%. Otherwise, I'll keep playing Pact SI.
@Acidfiend - I just worry that without the Wishes and the EtW's win cons, you are stone cold to Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Damping Matrix, any kind of discard on the play, and even more vulnerable to counterspells. Like Vacrix, I am all for Glass Cannon tactics, but I don't feel that reducing your win cons (even with the inclusion of Serum Powders) is a path to faster, more consistent wins.
I also worry that by taking out the Land Grants and the lands (either one or two) that you have reduced your Initial Mana Sources (IMS). This deck already runs as much free acceleration as possible, but that one land can make the difference a lot of the time. I agree that Land Grant is an awful top deck when you already have all the land out of your deck, but I feel that the ability to pull that land out of your deck is significantly better than not running those mana sources in the first place.
I did a large amount of testing last year with Landless Unpowered Belcher in Vintage last year and found that while the deck is painfully explosive, you have to mulligan very hard to get good hands, even with Serum Powder. My fear is that by taking out IMS's, you will have to remove more and more hands that have either an IMS, or a win con, but not both, thus reducing your chances of drawing them with the next hand, or, even worse, having both, but no acceleration. Then you have a tough choice. Do you ship it back and get something worse or do you see what you can develop? Also, Serum Powders are a shite topdeck when you need an accelerant to pop your Belcher.
Also, how many times have you killed yourself to Spoils. I found that it was very subptimal in my testing (see several pages ago, I think) and often wished for a Dark Ritual, or a Belcher and just killed myself! I found this was happening more than I would like, as this is a deck that already loses to so many things that I don't like helping my opponent along!
For reference, this is my current list:
Maindeck:
1x Taiga
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Manamorphose
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Land Grant
4x Street Wraith
4x Rite of Flame
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lions Eye Diamond
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall
4x Chrome Mox
4x Burning Wish
Sideboard:
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Reverent Silence
1x Hull Breach1x Telemin Performance
4x Blood Moon
4x Xantid Swarm
2x Shattering Spree
"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted." - John Lennon
Hey all, I took Belcher to the SCG 5k Orlando Legacy Open yesterday and did fairly well. I went 4-3, losing my last match which would have put me in the top 16, I placed 29th overall. I lost to a Countertop deck, Merfolk, and Dredge (very unfortunate mulligans on my part and very broken dredges on his part, but a real nice dude otherwise so it wasn't a big deal). I smashed Zoo, ANT, R/b Goblins, and some random janky deck. I don't think ill be able to give a good play by play report, but I won many games on the back of Empty the Warrens, and quite a few Belcher kills too. I play RGb version with Dark Rituals and Bayou, and found that I loved the explosiveness of Dark Ritual even if it messes with the consistency somewhat. I never really had a problem casting it though. If anyone wants to see my exact list just let me know, but its pretty standard. My sideboard was:
4 x Ingot Chewer
4 x Xantid Swam
1 x Duress
1 x Goblin War Strike
1 x Diminishing Returns
1 x Empty the Warrens
1 x Infernal Tutor
1 x Reverent Silence
1 x Tendrils of Agony
I never used Ingot, the Swarm won me one game in the Merfolk match, Duress stopped ANT, and Goblin War Strike helped end my Zoo match on turn 2 both games thanks to a combo of early Dark Rituals, Rite of Flames, Lotus Petals, and Burning Wish, Emptying for 12. I used DReturns once against Goblins to build a massive storm count but got lucky and ended up with a Belcher kill. Sick card, but really luck based moreso than others. Reverent Silence and ToA weren't used. Overall, Belcher kicked some ass yesterday...had a lot of fun.
EDIT: One of my teammates brought Belcher as well, RG with one land and Street Wraiths, and she dominated early on too. She is one of the feature matches on SCG.com if you're interested. She got knocked out by the usual blue culprits later on but was 4-0 going to the final rounds of Swiss. So the lesson is- Belcher is sick as hell and still strong, just avoid blue! I think we knew that though.
It's consistent enough to explode Turn 1 most of the time. Seriously, it's most of the time just a matter of your opponent having a Force of Will or not.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
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