Solidarity and TES are pretty much dead... I mean, ANT is an evolved version of TES and solidarity has been gone for a couple of years. In the Netherlands, the only combodeck played is ANT. Sure there are a few who play Belcher but not enough to board in cards against those decks. Dredge and reanimator don't really count cause they require a whole different approach... You can easily race reanimator for instance.Originally Posted by brianw712
The idea of boarding it in against NOPRO is a good one... I haven't played against those decks so therefore I didn't mention them.
I played the Rock at the Dutch Open Legacy Champs and lost horribly to ANT (Even with 11 hatecards in my board). I mean, Thorn and Canonist are cute and all, but they are way to slow... When you have one of the two out, they just bounce it and combo on their own turn... Hide//Seek only costs me four slots and does the job on its own.
@ AggroSteve,
You're right... Survivaldecks are not really troublesome, but when they manage to get a proggy or Iona out, you're kind of screwed ;)
According to ancient Norwegian myths, Team Moosebite did your sister!
again you have a point, though i have to admit i never hat the opportunity to play agains progenitals or iona-playing decks, since i'm from south tyrol and the next place i could play legacy is about 120 km away from my place.... sucks
the only questions is if Hide/Seek is the best card to do this job against combo besides its only good agains ANT
your sidebourd had teegs as well they will help to but won't do the job alone right?
what about a card the cure is playing "false cure" against tendrills? its a tech the would not expect (only good against ANT as well though)
oh and by the way, does anybody know where i can get some tarmogoyfs, i'm still using my friends, but he needs them now, so i have to by some (3 pieces), thanks for the help
I'm not sure about you guys but the ANT players in my area (US) have been running closer to Saito's list from GP Madrid (2/2 split for AD and Tendrills). So, Hide//Seek is not an option.
I'm testing Child of Korlis to help against it, they have to either answer it or storm for almost twice my life total. A second Child usually means that I don't have to care about them at all. It won't beat me getting milled but it's helpful in other matches too (mainly Burn and Dredge). On that subject, How're they getting a 14+ storm count? are they actually able to Survive an Ad that long (Ill-Gotten Gains?)? Or, are they doing it for most of it and hoping that you won't hit them for 5 before you run out of cards?
As always, Diversified hate is always the best. If your opponent thinks that you have one and you have the other in hand they can misplay based on that thought. Perfect example: Re-animator player got blown out by Faerie Macabre and sided out bounce. Game 3, Leyline = auto-loss.
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@Arne - I like your list. I do think you should look into creating a stronger "toolbox" for your knight's search ability a little more though. he's really good at what he does and your manabase is stable enough to support it (outside of my toolbox selection, you're running more duals than I am). How're you liking the Elspeth? I cut them from my list. It was a good gimmick but most of the time it was a win more card. I have almost fallen in love with a single Primal Command and Baneslayer Angel in her place. I've definitely used all of the modes as well.
Also, Where is the graveyard hate? I understand that you were looking for a stronger Aggro stopper but graveyard based decks do come up in your meta, right? It seems like your list would just fold to a Dredge, Aggro-Loam, or ##-Lands Deck. Does a single Bog actually cut it? Cause Teeg isn't good vs 2 of that 3.
You're absolutely right about the GY hate... But I built my deck after doing a meta analysis and figured I didn't need real GYhate. We have a group of about 20 players who show up each time and I kinda know what and how they play. I do have to say that a single bog did help me in a game where I really needed it.
I'm still looking for a volrath's stronghold but they seem hard to get by. Also I'd like a one-off Nantuko monastery in my list. It's a good beater when you need it.
On Elspeth, Knight-Errant; I really really like her. She's like Jitte, when she sticks, she wins... Opponents usually tend to try and get rid of her and don't care if they need 2 or 3 cards to do it. that's pure CA. Other than that, she has cool abilities to help win against aggrocontrol and even aggro decks...
I'm also thinking off adding 2 recurring nightmare, they are nuts with kitchen finks and witness... also, those creatures scream of being used with cabal therapy.
I played a guy the last time who played a list almost similar to mine. He played profane command... that card is CA as well, especially when you can get rid of an opposing creature and return your own eternal witness!
According to ancient Norwegian myths, Team Moosebite did your sister!
How often are you getting to threshold? Your list is mostly permanents. Without Threshold Monastery isn't as good as he would seem. I run a Nomad Stadium because if I'm popping it I'm in tough shape and fighting back. The stronghold could be something nice to have.
What are you having issues with? I was having issues with a single creature slipping past *flying* so I added a single Kor Haven. It's definitely earned it's spot in the deck since adding it (although it took the stronghold slot). Your list looks like it could support either/both (4 colorless slots has been fine for me, and one of mine doesn't produce a mana)
What would you cut for Nightmare? The biggest issue is that lists always feel tight. So you always feel like every card has earned it's place.
Last edited by damionblackgear; 03-27-2010 at 12:15 PM. Reason: Spelling Error
@MrShine
Whats your decklist right now with the KotR?
i'm new to rock and ive read the 26 pages so long and im happy with wut i see...but i need to know if disrupt is better than destruction overall...i like Hymn to Tourach and i wanna try them wit deeds and KotR but im kinda lost haha xD
I have recently put together this pile, and wouldn't you know won the small local tournament.
23 Lands:
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Bajuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
13 Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Eternal Witness
24 Other Spells
2 Elspeth
2 Garruk
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn to Tourach
Sideboard:
4 Ravenous Trap
1 Bajuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Runed Halo
Quick Aside:
Most cards are pretty much staples of the archetype, however I do not own a 4th KotR, or Tarmogoyf.
Report: (Apologies to those I played whom I don't remember your names and I wasn't planning to write a report so I didn't write them down)
Round 1: Jim with Elves!
Game 1: I lead with Birds. He goes Llanowar elves. I vindicate his land. He plays another and plays Priest. I swords the priest. I plays a fyndhorn. I draw a deed and let him over extend. Deed his board, drop a KotR and win.
Sideboard: Nothing
Game 2: This time I am the aggressor. Birds-KotR-Hiearch-Garruk-Overrun. I Swords a priest so he pretty much rolls over.
2-0 Game (1-0 Tourney)
Round 2: Jorge with Zoo
Game 1: He brings the quick beats with Nacatl-Grim Lavamancer/Kird Ape-Tarmogoyf. I deed and then play a KotR. It is pathed. So I play my other one and ride it to victory after I draw another deed. Horizon Canopy showed its stuff here with KotR. Their synergy is quite good.
Sideboard: -4 Thoughtsieze +4 Kitchen Finks
Game 2: He mulls to five. I lead with Birds-Finks-Hierarch-Garruk+Finks. Hurray!
2-0 (2-0 Tourney)
Round 3: Dunno who with NO Bant (I should have lost this round)
Game 1: We trade creatures with removal spells/countermagic for a while. I deed the board away at some point and we go to topdeck mode. I draw elspeth and win with her. But he had a Hierarch out with NO in hand, but didn't play NO because he thought I would deed in response. He realizes his mistake while sideboarding.
Sideboard: I have no idea what I took out but I know I put in 3 Runed Halos. That is my answer to Prog but I am very unhappy with it.
Game 2: This is where my memory gets fuzzy. I lose to an eventual goyf, but I remember that I misplayed badly. He had 2 cards in hand, so did I: Hymn and Elspeth and like an idiot I play Elspeth first. Force of Will... Duh. It was an empty board so I probably win that game if I play hymn first.
Game 3: Again fuzzy memory. What is clear though is I was going to lose that game and needed a topdeck deed to have a chance. At 3 life I draw the deed and sweep his board of 1 hierarch, 1 RWM, and 1 Goyf. Shortly after my beats start arriving and I win.
2-1 (3-0) He punted game 1, but I punted game 2. Even steven.
Round 4: Dunno who with dredge
This was over fast, and I feel like I got pretty lucky.
Game 1: I win the roll and go birds. He plays Gemstone and Pimp. I play KotR. He discards dredgers and dredges alot but doesn't hit much. His board is Pimp, 2 Jellyfish guys and a gemstone. I don't attack with KotR so I can fetch a Bajuka Bog which I do in response to his dread return for an Iona. I follow that with a vindicate on his land and attack for game.
Sideboard: -4 Hymn to Tourach -1 Thoughtsieze +4 Ravenous Trap +1 Bajuka Bog
Game 2: He dredges alot, I have all my hate. I mean all of it. Wipe his graveyard and lay some beats with Loxodon Hierarch + Garruk. I win with Ravenous Traps in hand, after playing both bogs.
2-0 (4-0, winner of 12 worldwake packs, hurray!)
Thoughts:
Knight of the Reliquary is absolutely awesome. I would not even think about playing without that card. Goyf would be nice, but what are ya gonna do? I really like my list but I was wondering if anyone had an idea for a better answer to Prog? Runed Halo seems underwhelming and deeding it away is the worst. Speaking of deed, what are everyone's thoughts on Sakura Tribe Elder instead of Birds? Deeding away birds is also no fuego, and I have regretted it a few times; however second turn KotR/Vindicate is pretty sweet. Anyways, love the deck, wondering what suggestions/feedback people who have played it longer have. Thanks
Edit: To be clear, I would play goyf in addition to KotR. Not one or the other.
A ruler wears a crown while the rest of us wear hats, but which would you rather have when it’s raining?”—Barrin, Principia
hmm... if u had a 4th KotR and 4 goyf what would u change? ^^
-2 garruk? and -3 Elephant??
and wut about Bob and SdT? it won meh so many games but im still not sure tho...
SDT gives this deck an or even thé edge! Even an allout Aggro deck like zoo plays sylvan library to not have to use mana each turn (but basically it does the same)... It helps you find answers and speed your deck up... Bob is a nobrainer... if it sticks -> CA! if it doens't -> one less removal for your big guys!
According to ancient Norwegian myths, Team Moosebite did your sister!
[QUOTE=Arne;442696 Bob is a nobrainer... if it sticks -> CA! if it doens't -> one less removal for your big guys![/QUOTE]
that's exatly why i like to use him ^^. KIt can wins you game by itself but reuire 7 slot in the deck...
4x Bob
3x SdT
that why im unsure bout him... but still...^^
I wouldnt consider Top and Bob a package.. they are very strong independent cards, and only work better in conjunction. I would play each of them on its own, too.
I mean, top is like the best card, look at all the shuffles- active knight with top is so hot (spin top, sac land for fetch, spin top, fetch, spin top), and thats only something.
Bob is good, i love Bob decks, its just that if you stick 4 Bobs in that deck, with kinda high curve and all, you will sometimes reveal a walker against zoo and just die even if you were suposed to crush them.
What about Regrowth/Night's Whisper package instead of Witness/Confidant? Ive seen some deck play those and i think its nice- it curves better into Garruk. But thats a setup for more controllish approach, like Garruk/Deed/Damnation etc. Witness seems to be kinda subpar for me those days.. idk if Regrowth is a substitute for that, but im willing to try it.
witness has been really good to me... I'd never even consider to cut her from my lists. She's a 2 for1 in contrary to regrowth.
btw, you're absolutely right about Bob and Top
According to ancient Norwegian myths, Team Moosebite did your sister!
So my friend and I are going to a tournament in June. I've recently acquired playsets of everything for an aggro build of The Rock. Here's what I'm sleeving up for our testing gauntlet:
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard:
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Krosan Grip
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
Our gauntlet includes Goblins, Landstill, Tempo Thresh, Dragon Stompy, AnT, MUC, Dream Halls, and ScepterChant. On paper, I think I'll be a bit too slow versus fast aggro decks, so maybe I'll cut a Pulse/Vindicate and add 2 Path to Exile, but I'm going to test out my written list and see what needs to be tweaked. Btw, I do not own any Savannah or Knight of the Reliquary, so... yeah.
There is a distinct lack of progenitus in the list... Seriously, play it, it will win you games! I agree that 2 path should go in over Vindcate/pulse. Also, if you are expecting any aggro at all I highly recommend playing a Sword of Fire and ice maindeck w/ the Stoneforge... It rapes goblins and merfolk, and gives good range against zoo and has value in non-red or blue aggro matchups too.
I'm interested in how the nighthawks work out for you, as well as the lack of discard. That being said, if you do decide to run NO/Prog (which I HIGHLY recommend) than you'll want to have 4 copies of Thoughtseize/duress floating around either your mainboard or side.
I know I haven't tested your build, but I would strongly recommend these changes:
-2 Doran
-1 Nighthawk
-2 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Vindicate
+2 Path
+3 Natural Order
+1 Progenitus
Also, I have a couple friends who have been playing Bob along side NO/Prog and have yet to have any real problems... Drawing into No hurts, but then you'll probably win anyway...
Oh, and given the tight colour requirements, I feel like Noble Hierarch might be inferior to Birds in this case due to lack of black production (for doran, nighthawk, pulse, vindicate)
Anyway, I am interested to hear how your testing goes. Good Luck!
MrShine
Arsenal - You have 12 spot removal spells and 4 Nighthawks. You shouldn't have an issue with Aggro. I think that if you're going to cut in fear of that you should just look at playing Finks over nighthawk.
More importantly your meta has ANT, MUC, and Combo. You're Aggro-Rock but you still need a little bit to stop those decks. Otherwise, You have to get lucky any only play the other aggro match-ups.
You have time though, use it to test all of your meta and adjust accordingly. To help with the Dragon Stompy match-up I would alter the manabase. You'll find tht your list isn't as color intense as you may think it is (16 non-basics). You should be able to get by with only 7 fetches and 5 Duals, even if you don't have a Savannah (Noble).
Personally, I would play control Rock for your meta. It's a lot more resilient and can change to be more aggressive by your own play style.
I've recently been trying out a similar build as Arsenal:
24 LANDS:
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Forest
4 Plains
4 Swamp
16 CREATURES:
4 Dark Confidant
2 Doran
3 Knight of Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wall of Blossoms
6 DISRUPTION
2 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 UTILITY
3 Sensei's Divining Top
11 REMOVAL
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Maelstrom Pulse
15 SIDEBOARD:
2 Diabolic Edict (defense against Progenitus)
2 Gaddock Teeg (vs ANT)
3 Engineered Plague (vs Elves, vs Goblins)
2 Tormod's Crypt (vs Dredge, vs Reanimator)
1 Hide/Seek (defense against Progenitus etc.)
3 Kitchen Finks (vs Burn, vs Naya)
2 Bind (universal choice)
I suppose it has 50/50 chances on average to win against any deck (except ANT), which is the main characteristic of the Rock. BUT, it is painfully slow. If I try to speed it up by tossing out disruption, it loses it's "IT CAN BE AGGRO OR IT CAN BE CONTROL" characteristic and it can not hope to outrace RGW Zoo builds.
Taking into account that my local metagame is full of aggro decks, I'm considering swaping Hymns with Gerrard's Verdict because of possible life gain, and because of Hymn's BB mana cost.
Wall of Blossoms is here as a meta choice. It is a classic card advantage card and can work well with Doran.
I play Maelstrom Pulse instead of Vindicate because of Iona. If he chooses white - I'll Pulse her. If he chooses black, I'll exile her.
My greatest concern is ANT. PRE-sideboard I can't win. Period. Post-sideboard, my only chance is Gaddock, Seek or Bind.
I would appreciate any constructive advice.
i would not recomend cutting the hymn in favor of verdict, even thought verdict is easier to cast and the possible lifegain, most decks will just discard dead cards or the card which are of the least use against you
i played both, i was always happy with verdict but when i cut it for hymn the aggro matchup got better even if its a little bit harder to cast early (specialy if your playing shocklands due to lack of real duals *grrrr* )
if you like the more control path why nit trying playing more discard less removal, just like a senor weenie
i myself am just playing 4 thoughtsieze i cut verdict and hymn completely, but its a matter of playstyle, i like the more aggro style better, but with my build i'm able to play both
besides, i play nighthawks as well, and they are shining specialy in the aggro and aggro-control matchups, in addiction i'm considering playing stoneforge mystic, since i'm allready playing 2 swords of light and shadow (which are great, with nighthawk they are soooooo good, and otherwise they protect every guy you have from the most common removal, i just like them)
hope i could help, and sorry for my "not-perfect-english" since i'm from south tyrol in italy^^
publius_aelius - As much of a fan of knight as I am I think it's best with a couple of lands to "assist" her. Without them she might as well be a vanilla creature. She litterally reads "Tap, Sacrifice a Forest or a Plains:Do Something amaxzing" With reminder text to keep things only as they are available.
All and All, I can't say how much of a fan I am of Knight. It even trumps Iona if you adjust your land-base (even graveyard hate exists in an on-color land). I shouldn't hype her up to be so much but, like I said, if you're going to play her, you should take full advantage of her.
You asked for criticism and I think that should be given, I think that you have an open slot in your deck, the lands. I say this because you have such a low CMC. 24 lands does help Bob damage but it seems a bit much. Have you been hitting land clumps when you don't have Bob or Top?
*Edit: Bind doesn't do anything to ANT, unless you want to Bind their fetchlands. It may be a Wasted spot in th board since it only hits non-mana activated abilities. Or, are you seeing other activated abilities in your meta that you need to deal with?
Lastly, I think that AggroSteve is correct. Don't change Hymn to Verdict. If you're going to cut Hymn do it for the other 2 Thoughtseize and a 2 of something else. Verdict is easier to cast but gives them options. That's what you don't want to do. It's the same reason that Browbeat isn't played in burn.
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AggroSteve - Your English reads just fine. You don't need to apologize. :)
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Everyone - Why are we boarding the Edicts? Are we that afraid of a first turn Lackey that we are still playing Swords main? I understand it's also good vs burn. From what I've seen from lists, most people are incorporating a creature that gains life (Finks, Nighthawk, etc) into their builds so they should be OK vs that match-up. Basically, if Progenitus is such an issue, setup to deal with it main. It also gives you outs to Reanimator since they really can't afford to risk playing Iona on black (Swords is the most popular removal in the format!).
Last edited by damionblackgear; 04-07-2010 at 05:40 PM. Reason: Forgot about a comment that I wanted to make.
1- In regards to the ANT/combo matchup, there are two ways I see us being able to deal with it. 1) ignore it and hope you don't get paired against it. It has been said time and time again that your sideboard should exist to help to make OK matchups more winnable, not used to try to salvage a terrible one. That being said, if you are looking for combo hate, option 2) is either play something like 3x Thorn of Amythest or an Enlightened Tutor package (which I'm still experimenting with ATM)- 2x E Tutor, 1x thorn, 1x Ethersworn cannonist.
2- I think in terms of utility vs Aggro Finks is way better than nighthawk; it gains us more life after dying to a blocker than nighthawk (4 vs 2), is easier on the mana, and persists after any removal that isnt STP or PTE for additional blocks. While nighthawk CAN trade with any monster, I would personally choose Finks for more blocking power.
3- I agree that 24 lands is WAYYY too much... I'm playing 21 with a bunch of 4/5 CC spells in my control deck right now and I still get flooded. On that note, I have been experimenting with Horizon Canopy to marginal success; its great late when you can just cycle it but the pain hurts early, especially vs aggro which is very common in my meta.
@damion - I don't really undertand your last comment... are you suggesting putting edicts maindeck? NOT playing STP maindeck? In any case goblins is a terrible matchup, and a 1st turn lackey might be one of my most dreaded plays from the opponent... that being said, discard does have value vs gobs so the lists packing Hymn should be doing a little better at least (as long as its follwed up by a threat T3)
in my list (follows) i'm just boarding in the diabolic edicts as addictional removal against goblins
generally, even though i play a aggro rock, my deck gives me the option to switch to control in aggroheavy metas
here's my list (sideboard still experimental, since i'm quite new in tournaments, but needs help i would say)
22 lands
3x verdant catacombs
3x windswepth heath
2x bloodstained mire (still haven't got the march flats)
2x overgrown tomb
2x godless shrine
2x temple garden
1x volrath's stronghold (good, but not sure if i still need it in the aggro build)
1x oran rief, the vastewood (not quite satisfied with it, might change it back to nantuko monastery)
2x forest
2x swamp
2x plains
19 creatures
3x dark confidant
4x tarmogoyf (got only one at the moment, so if someone knows where i can get them for a cheap price please tell me)
4x kitchen finks
2x vampire nighthawk
3x doran, the siege tower
3x eternal witness
20 spells
3x sensei's divining top
2x sword of light and shadow
4x swords to plowshares
4x vindicate
3x pernicious deed
4x thoughtsieze
SB
3x gaddock teeg
3x relic of progenitus
2x hide/seek
3x krosan grip
4x diabolic edict
(playing 61 cards MD, it's ever been like this since i started playing magic, and i wont change this even if my head would fall of my shoulders^^)
well you see, i'm quite heavy on removal, if its goblins which i'm playing against, most of the times its enough to just board out the nighthawks and swords for the diabolic edicts to win
shocklands is due to lack of real duals which sucks, the lifeloss in my list is quite heavy, and as well due to lack of knight of the reliquary i'm playing doran right now, but i'm quite satisfied with him
as you can see my greatest problem would be combo, against which i can only board in teegs and hide/seek (hoping oponent plays only singletons of Ad Nauseum and Tendrills, against belcher they have no use, sadly^^)
i'm right now considering playing mealstrom pulse over deed, has anyone mad good expierience with this change?
and i' right now considering playing stoneforge mystic instead of witness for a little tutor effect for the sword (which i would change into 1 light/shadow and 1 fire/ice, no jitte as long as i'm playing deed, if it changes jitte might come into the deck instead of swords)
what do you think, what could i improve,....
__________
and thanks damionblackgear, now i feel way better, did not think my english was still acceptable, since i'm not used to write or speak in this language anymore^^ (till i joined the source :D)
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