What about testing a version less explosive with more control stuff?
I'm testing a list that suites quite well against others aggro or aggro/control and hasn't auto-loss with ANT.
I tried to keep Gaddock maindeck to lock ANT and Natural Order in primis, and then to use the stoneforge mystic to have an advantage against aggro/aggro control and Naya Charm to have an unaspected stuff for all, it's never awful except for ANT.
The list is
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Hath
3 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateu
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wild nacatl
3 Kird Ape
2 Loam Lion
1 Figure of Destiny
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Naya Charm
1 Sylvan Library
Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Choke
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ranger of Eos
1 Aven Mindcensor
The aggro component in my opinion is the best, 9 high drops for the race, 3 mancers to set the game and only 1 figure for the late game.
4 tarmo for sure, then 3 gaddock for ANT to force your mulligan in 1st game, 3 qasali and 2 mystic.
Knight is no good for my metagame.
Mystic can take collar to strenght mancers abilities or the classic jitte, and naya charm often chooses tap all opponent creatures to strike the final attack.
Sideboarding 2 Ranger and 1 more jitte against aggro (taking gaddock place) gives you a lot of stuff to change the game in your favor in every moment of the game, you can choose FoD, mancers if you have the collar, cats or whatever you need.
Aven is a jolly for ANT, survival and natural order and the rest of the side is almost comprehensible...
EDIT:
my playtests at the moment:
ANT: 4-6 pre-side, 5-5 post-side
Pro-Bant: 7-3 pre-side, 7-3 post-side
Goblin: 8-2 pre-side, 7-3 post-side
Merfolk: 7-3 pre-side, 8-2 post-side
Canadian: 5-5 pre-side, 6-4 post-side
Survival: 4-6 pre-side, 7-3 post-side
Zoo: 7-3 pre-side, 7-3 post-side
Not so much, but enough to realize that it's not so bad.
Well, I think in your deck are 4 Grim Lavamancer better than 3. I like the Combo with Basilisk Collar and Lavamancer. Furthermore I think Figure is better than Kird Ape and Loam Lion, maybe you cut the Loam Lion for 2 Figures and 2 Naya Charm for 2 KnightotReliquary. Beside I think 4 Pridemage are necessary for this deck cause than you have more hate against some Countertopbuilds, Dreadnoughts and Stompybuilds.
Zoo<3
Pridemage makes the deck so all arround and flexible without losing any speed or consistence.
To people with jitte in their board wich matchups do you bring it in for?
Mirror, Rock, Merfolk, Burn and other fast Aggrodecks, Canadian Thresh. I really like Jitte against Thresh, if Jitte resolves, Jitte will win always against Thresh, it is sooooo good. Against Rock I exspect Jitte from the Rock player and my Jitte is the 5 removal for the oppenents jitte with pridemage. Merfolk the same furthermore Jitte is win against merfolk too.Originally Posted by Rizso
Zoo<3
First place (63 players) with not exactly this build. Will write details later today.
I went 5-0-1 today (26 people) with my build http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post438768
4-0-1 in the Swiss
1-0 in Top8 then split store credit
Top4 decks were Zoo (me), Bant Survival (Iona & Loyal Retainers), Aluren and Homebrewed Rock build.
Rd1 2-1 vs RGBw Aggro Loam w/ Burning wishes, Devastating dreams, Tombstalker & Knight of Reliquary main.
G1 I get him really low between chain lightnings are Lavamancer & Goyf.. but he is at 3 and I have no cards in hand as I play my goyf and he devastating dreams for like 5 so I take him to 1 w/ Lavamancer, everything dies.
We play draw-go for a few turns while he finds lands and starts loaming again while I draw Chain lightning & Lightning bolt... waiting to get a land.
Thankfully he already blew up all my basics with Devastating Dreams so I have no way to draw those (which is good since I need a fetch and burn in hand). I draw Arid mesa and chain him.
G2 He gets a broken Mox diamond, land, Chalice for 1 turn 1 and I can only muster up a Gaddock teeg t2 while he has a Crusher.
I see the writing on the wall after he plays Life from loam and pack em up for G3.
G3 I get a T1 Nacatl followed up with a t2 Goyf while he makes a Chalice for 1. I savagely rip Krosan grip and get his Chalice before combats so goyf is now a 3/4 and I start smashing him.
He gets a T4 Knight of Reliquary w/ 2 fetches in yard. I savagely rip a Lightning bolt and swing in.. He blocks goyf and I bolt his Knight post combat and play my 2nd Goyf.
He draws and plays Loam, I swing for a lot and he devastating dreams on his turn but cant kill my goyf and concedes.
Rd2 ANT 2-0
G1 he keeps a hand w/ a lot of disruption but I just play t1 Kird ape, t2 Gaddock teeg and get him with double goyf a few turns later as he is unable to go off.
G2 more of the same but with 4 Mindbreak traps and 4 Teegs main this time. Blow out as he keeps an Island and ponder w/ enough gas to go off if he can only get Black source. 2 Brainstorms and 2 Ponders later he cant get another mana source and I win.
Way to beat 2 of the worst matchups I have... Sick life.
Rd3 vs Mono black w/ Nev Disks, Bojuka bogs, etc. (The one list that top8'd SCG 5K Indy) 2-0
G1 I win the dye roll and go t1 Lavamancer as he goes Swamp, ritual, hymn nabbing 1 of my lands and a spell... while feeding my mancer. I play nothing since I can't draw land and he hymns me again, now I am down to just a goyf in hand and no land to play it.
I savagely rip a mountain and produce my goyf and together him and Lavamancer get him as he draws no creatures the entire game but only 4 Hymn to tourachs!
G2 I bring in Jitte and K-grip and I just get there by savagely ripping 2 Qasali pridemages for both his Phyrexian arenas before he gets to draw any cards from them. Eventually a KoR and Nacatl get him.
Rd4 vs Mono blue Merfolk (Yay!) 2-0
G1 & G2, Zoo does what zoo does to little blue fish.
Rd5 vs Aluren who is also 4-0 so we ID into Top8.
(Top8) Rd 6 vs Mono blue Merfolk (from rd4) 2-0
I get paired vs the Merfolk player I beat in the swiss, so its a no brainer I ask to play it out.
I get him in 2 quick games as he is unable to beat a t1 Nacatl and a t2 Lavamancer (which I sandbagged since I wanted him to FoW the nacatl if anything as I had Goyf in hand as well) Sick life.
Rd7 I get paired vs The Rock and seeing as its a bad matchup I am OK w/ the draw. Everyone is fine with that.
Only diff to the list I made is SB: -1 Jitte +1 Mindbreak trap. Main: -2 Lightning Helix +1 PtE +1 Chain Lightning
Last edited by sauce; 03-28-2010 at 01:32 AM.
My 12 Post Videos - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...Q65OWRL5my7utn
First place (63 players) with not exactly this build. Will write details later today.
Congrats DCTopTeam for the strong finish! So your list, kind of different build
Hope you can post your match ups!
I will be playing zoo at this moment. I think that the discussion about Dark Confidant is still important. I believe that Steppe Lynx has not been fully exploded preciselly because of the lack of black in today´s zoo lists. So, what about a 11 fetchland-4 color build that uses this 2/1 body as draw engine?
I am currently testing this 61 cards list:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quasali Priedmage
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
20 Lands:
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacomb
2 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plateau
1 Taiga
1 Savanna
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
SB:
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Canonist
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod´s Crypt
I know it may look iffy because of the pure aggro nature of zoo, but if you think about it it is not that unorthodox. When compared to Kird Ape, the Lynx is almost allways better in the early game (you know, with a high fetchland count).
Against control the Confidant is superb and when intertwined with S. Library you have a montrous advantage. Running a single Jitte has been nice because with this engine it does not look random anymore.
Combo is still a bad match up for us but we can still try to race their Ad Nauseam range (overall, with the help of a little cat that may punch them by four on turn two and then a bolt that got them down to 13).
About the mana base. I am trying with only two black sources (1 Scrubland and 1 Bayou) and, since the Kird Apes are out, only a single Taiga. I would love to play another Taiga (and also Savvana) but I can´t find a space for it. The Fetch Lands are a must not only because of the Lynx but also because of KoTR. Any advice here would be greately appreciated.
Of course, it is difficult to play against tempo thresh or even eva green because of the mana denial plan that characterize those constructions. However, it is not impossible to race them (specially eva green, whichs suicidal strategy acts against it when facing aggro).
Thanks for reading and for your help.
I'm a fan of including good cards (such as Dark Confidant) at the expense of relatively weaker ones (which is the case with whatever it replaces). The big question if whether the manabase can sustain it and whether the superior power is worth the tradeoff in stability--and the answer would depend on how the change affects various matchups.
I suspect that this isn't the case in most matchups, or Dark Zoo would be more widely played by now, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility right away. I'm very curious how the testing plays out--please let us know how it goes!
I have played tribal zoo for at least two years, and I have stopped playing it cause it's impossible to win a match with canadian. Wasteland and stifle are the only enemies of this deck.
If canadian wasn't in the metagame, I would play a different list
4 nacatl
4 steppe lynx
2 grim lavamancer
3 qasali pridemage
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
2 gaddock teeg
2 knight of reliquary
4 lightning bolt
4 tribal flames
3 path to exile
3 vindicate
4 wooded foothills
3 windswept heath
4 arid mesa
1 taiga
2 plateau
1 savannah
1 bayou
1 badland
1 scrubland
1 volcanic island
1 forest
1 plains
60 cards, 21 lands (11 fetch)
Vindicate and tribal flames are the most important cards for this type of zoo. You can't leave them out.
My best results with this deck are 6-2 in the Annecy legacy in 2008 (35° on 290 players), and I won and top8ed several 40-60 players tournaments, with those lists on deckcheck.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22184
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22345
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22892
I abandoned this deck because of many canadian and stacks in the metagame, but I don't know if now it's the moment for its resurrection...
Last edited by JamesTheSmoker; 03-30-2010 at 04:33 AM.
is there any advantage the would will people to run loam lion over extra kird ape? if you ask me, it's so stupid. the are more sorces of red in the deck than white. i don't see anything else that would persuade me otherwise.
also, on that deck that won the 63 person tournament: are you seriuosly only running 3 lightning bolt? HAHA, wow. i know some people are stupid but that's ridiculous to only run 3 bolt when you're running the INARGUABLY INFERIOR chain lightning in the deck. grats on the great finish but the list just seems wrong to me.
Loam Lion cannot get countered or killed by Blue Elemental Blast or Hydroblast.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
Right, but going further, they will still have that BEB in hand waiting. What's worse, them destroying Kird Ape or countering a Burn spell?
In searching for sideboard cards in my binder, I found some Flametongue Kavu. Wouldn't these be effective against Bant decks? They kill the occasional Tarmogoyf, Pridemage, and most importantly Rhox War Monk. I think I'm gonna give them a try.
It's worse to even give them that option.
What are you saying here? You're going to have other red cards for them to stop, and sometimes it would be better if they went 1for1 for your Kird Ape/Loam Lion instead of an important burn spell. It's not always worse, not even close. I'd be happy to see their SB cards deal with my Kird Apes tbh.
I was going to write a response, but I think this article by PV illustrates the idea better than I could:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/f..._in_Magic.html
It should be open to everyone.
The relevant part is this:
"By the same token, do not give your opponent more choices! Of course, this does not apply to completely stupid individuals. Some guys just look like they’ve been Mindslavered every turn, and to those you don’t mind giving a lot of choices because you know they will make the wrong ones, but you shouldn’t need any help beating those. If you are paired against a good player, do not give him choices!
I remember reading in more than one place that Loam Lion was better than Kird Ape - that, all things considered, the fact that it died to Deathmark was not relevant, because if your opponent wanted to spend that Deathmark on your Lion he wouldn’t have one to kill your Goyf, Nacatl, Baneslayer, Reliquary, etc. This is simply not correct. Your opponent does not have to Deathmark this guy just because he can! With Kird Ape, your opponent cannot cast Deathmark, but with this guy he has the option to either do it or not, and this can only be good for him! If he is going to die to any of the previously mentioned cards, he is simply not going to hit this guy, and he will be just like a Kird Ape. If he is dying to this guy, though, then he is much worse! What if your opponent’s hand is four Deathmarks? What if he just needs some time to kill you and so doesn’t care about the big guys? What if he is on two life and this is your only guy? It is hoping too much that your opponent will misplay and hit this guy when he shouldn’t - it is much better to hope that, from time to time, he is going to actively want to kill your guy, but then won’t be able to because his spell can‘t target it. "
*edit* Yeh, it's about Extended Zoo, but the point is still applicable.
*edit 2* Also, I think Steppe Lynx is better, depending on your meta, than either Ape or Lion. If there's a lot of the mirror, Ape/Lion might be better. But, I think that in almost all other matchups, Lynx is better.
Most damage is done by creatures because they can attack multiple times. So if they can't destroy my Loam Lion they're welkom to counter my burn spell but my Loam Lion would have done its damage. Besides Loam Lion would have enabled me to put pressure on them and to deal with my Lion they're likely to tap out. So I have a window of opportunity to use my burn spells anyway.
Last edited by Nelis; 04-02-2010 at 06:32 PM. Reason: better grammar
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
As for the Loam Lion vs Kird Ape debate... I think the question is really more direct than you have made it so far.
Kird Ape dies to BEB and HBlast.
Loam Lion dies to Deathmark.
Do you want you value the ability to remove opponents choices?
Do you expect a higher density of Blasts or Marks?
Personally I don't think there is a right answer honestly because there are so many variable that adjust from game to game. Personally I prefer Lion simply because your opponents will never use blasts on Ape (from personal experience) but opponents will occasionally be an idiot and Mark the Lion instead... I would rather lose my Lion than my Teeg.
That's why I run a mix of both.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
Ok as promised, here is my decklist that top-ed a 63 player Legacy tournament last 27 March 2010. A number of pages back, I managed to place 4th in a 60 player tourney last December losing to ANT in the Semis because I didn’t have an SB for it. Well, lessons learned for me. 2nd to 8th place is as follows: UGR Fae (this deck won that December tournament), Canadian Threshold, UG Merfolk, Mono Red Burn, Green Stax Aggro, Dark Depths Combo and Slivers.First place (63 players) with not exactly this build. Will write details later today.
First off, the decklist:
Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Savannah
Critters
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Loam Lion
2 Kird Ape
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Sylvan Library
4 Path to Exile
60
Sideboard
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
2 Swords to Plowshares
15
Explanation for decklist:
1. No Lightning Helix – Yes I have 0 Helix. Maybe people here can remember that I am not a fan of Helix because it’s a 2cc removal. It helped me in the sense that it gave immense pressure to opponents as I almost always had T1 Nacatl or Ape or Lion, T2 spot remove using a 1cc (Chain, Bolt or PTE) thus swing for 3 or 2 and still manage to drop another 1cc threat. I didn’t regret completely dropping it.
2. Sylvan Library upped to three (3) from my previous two (2) – Was my MVP all day! Enough said. Got the 3-Library concept from Alix.
3. Two (2) maindeck Teegs – I learned my lesson the hard way. I also had one on the side. This was crucial in the matchup against UGR Fae. Will elaborate later.
4. Loam Lion – Was also huge. I had a lot of 1cc threats that immensely pressured opponents early on.
5. Figure of Destiny – Got this from HLikeALion. It’s still worth playing if you ask me. Id probably cut it to two (2) though since it’s a little mana-intensive.
6. Bloodstained Mire – This was supposed to be Arid Mesa but I didn’t have the time to look for one because I was not expecting to play this deck weeks before the tournament.
1st Rd. BG Rock
Game 1: I spot-remove everything he lands while I beat him down with 2 Nacatls and 1 Ape. Had a S. Library in play. WIN
Game 2: He disrupts my hand and I can’t recover. Gatekeeper and Nyxathid finishes me off. LOSE
Game 3: I can’t remember how I beat him (sorry) I remembered I had a Loam Lion. He Deeds me twice but I still won. After the game I still have a Goyf, KoTR and a Nacatl in Hand. WIN
Match 2-1; Overall 1-0
2nd Rd. GWB Beats
Game 1: All he could do is Vial. He drops a Mother of Runes which I immediately take care off. He drops a Spectral Lynx, got me worried since I had a Goyf and dint want him to recover. I take care of the Lynx (Bolt) since he had no open mana to regen it and I win using FoD and 2 Loam Lions. WIN
Game 2: I had Sylvan Lib in play on this one. He starts slow again. He cast a Sword of L and S but I immediately Grip it. I win by Pridemage, Ape, Goyf. WIN
I dint actually see his deck because of the way I won. I don’t know what’s going on but He was running into some mana screws or something. Well, Zoo punishes bad draws right? Not taking anything away from him and his deck, but, my easiest match of the day.
Match 2-0; Overall 2-0
3rd Rd. UGR Merfolk
Game 1: Remove every creature he lands. While Loam Lion, Ape and Nacatl finishes him off. WIN
Game 2: 2nd Turn Chill for him. I see 2 Bolts, an Ape, and a Lavamancer in my hand. I draw red spells for two consecutive turns while he “curves” and beats me down. LOSE
Game 3: Goyf and Nacatl gives him the early damage. I had a Library in play. All he could muster is 3 Cursecatchers. He plays Jitte which I Grip before he equips it to his Catcher. WIN
Match 2-1; Overall 3-0
4th Rd. Slivers
Game 1: I beat him down with Gaddock and some other crits. He had no Crystalline and my removals were free to their thing. WIN
Game 2: I had a slow slow start. His troops fly and can’t be targeted. I had plenty of removals with no critters. LOSE
Game 3: Times up. Needed a turn to kill him… BAD BAD
Match 1-1; Overall 3-0-1
5th Rd. MBC
Game 1: He Extripates my Foothills! Next he Wastelands my Taiga and Extirpates my Taiga! I was shocked of what happened honestly. I was staring at my 1/1 Ape. He beats me down w/ Withered Wretch, Bob, Misha’s Factory and Hypno Spec. LOSE
Game 2: He does his discard thing. He doesn’t play anything significant next. I beat him down with 2 Loam Lion and Goyf. WIN
Game 3: He gambles with a bad but potentially explosive hand. He draws crap the next turns. I win by Nacatl, Goyf. Had Sylvan Library in play. WIN
Match 2-1; Overall 4-0-1
6th Rd. UG Merfolk
We ID
After Swiss I was ranked 5th. I knew that the next rounds leading to the Finals won’t be as easy now. Top 8 after Swiss:
Canadian Thresh
Mono Red Sligh
Mono Green Stompy
Dark Depths
Zoo (me)
UG Merfolk
UGR Fae
Slivers
Quarters Dark Depths
Game 1: I thought that his deck was just some MBC stuff so I PTE his Confidant. A turn later he does his thing. A 20/20 critter got me scooping. LOSE
Game 2: He does nothing significant and I beat him down with Apes, Nacatls, Lions and Goyf. WIN
Game 3: He misplays terribly. He drops a Hexmage and I saw no PTE or STP in my hand. I Dropped Mancer and passed. He drops a Swamp which gave me a sigh of relief. On the same turn, he Senseis, and I think he picked up a Dark Depths. He land dropped the Depths but I reminded him that he already had played a land. Land count during that time was he @ 4 and me @ 3. So if I allow the Depths the land count would be him @ 5 and me @ 3. His mistake is that he didn’t upkeep-Top. He gentleman-ly gets the Depth back in his hand and passes the turn. I Mancer his Hexmage and proceeded with the beatdown of FoD, Nacatl and Goyf. WIN
Semis UGR Thresh
Game 1: He drops an Island and passes. For the next three turns, my fetches got Stifled. Could you believe it??? My fourth land drop was met by a Wasteland. He proceeds with a Mongoose and Goyf beatdown.
Game 2: I give him an early beatdown and some burns. Sylvan Lib was huge. WIN
Game 3: This was back and forth. I fetch a Forest and dropped Nacatl. I fetched a Plateau and swung for 3. He Wastelands my Plateau. I luckily top decked another Plat and Nacatl again swings for 3. Mid game I STP and PTE his Goyfs. He lands another Goyf lucky for me I top decked a KoTR. The dude was 9/9. He resolves and joins Loam Lion on my board. I dropped Sylv Lib again on my next turn and attacked with KoTR which was met by an E. Truth. I recast the KoTR again and during my next turn I Libraried another KoTR, a Goyf and a PTE. Sweet… I pick up the PTE. I beat him down and win. WIN
Finals UGR Fae
Game 1: I take care of his Goyfs which I think was the key. I managed to resolve a Teeg and he joins Kird Ape, Loam Lion and FoD. WIN
Game 2: I dropped another Teeg. I Had Loam and Goyf as well. He drops his own Goyf which I StP’ed. He cast E Explosives but I reminded him that there was a Teeg in play. Last 6 points of damage was dealt by Chain Lightning and Bolt. WIN
All in all, I was lucky that I was not matched up against any combo. There were numerous AnT’s and Dredge (which included my brother) during the day. I was not originally gonna be playing for various reasons.
Add to the fact that my last major tournament was way back last December 2009 wherein I placed 4th. It got me thinking if I was fit (mentally and physically) enough to play. I also only had three hours of sleep before the tournament.
When I arrived at the venue, I tried to be calm and relaxed. It helped me a lot. I was even talking and joking with my opponents during the game. Sorry I was not able to post a more in-depth report. Will do in the next tournament. After the game, I enjoyed a few beers with my brother.
Sweet! Zoo all the way!
Last edited by DCTopTeam; 04-06-2010 at 12:25 AM.
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