[Premium Article] Six Cards to Unban in Legacy (VOTE!)

[Smmenen]

Aaron Forsythe twittered that he'd like community members to give the DCI and WOTC feedback on cards people think could be banned or unbanned.

No card in Legacy has been banned for 5 years for power level reasons except as a consequence of power level errata fixes. Only three cards have been banned (time vault, flash, and sharazad), which is a remarkable testament both to Legacy's balance and to the DCI"s original banned list. I can't think of another format where the DCI has had such a 'hands off' policy, or where it has worked so effectively.

Rising to forsythe's challenge, I chose one card from each color and an artifact, and made the best case I could for unbanning. These are discussion starters, and not the end of the story. I present arguments, but I also have a poll for each card presented, and request that people express their views in the forum so Forsythe can see them.

Have at it!

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...In_Legacy.html

[heroicraptor]

Goblin Recruiter?! Are you serious?

[Clark Kant]

I think limiting yourself to one card of each color and one artifact is arbitrary and made for weaker suboptimal suggestions.

Yes, Illusionary Mask, Earthcraft, Land Tax and Mind's Twist deserve to be unbanned.

But there's no reason why some other cards (Grim Monolith for example) couldn't be unbanned either. Grim Monolith would fare well in this format, and honeslty wouldn't even see that much play.

And I'm not sold on unbanning Recruiter given how strong Goblins is already and how strong an effect Recruiter has.

[kicks_422]

It's not April 1 yet, is it?

[cjva]

I think that most cards on the list can be safely unbanned. (except maybe earthcraft, seems to easy to go infinit with sentinel)

Anyways, what i rely think is that sensei's divining top should be banned. Not cause it's to good, but for the time it takes when people top all the time. So a similar banning on top as they did in extended.

[Smmenen]

Goblin Recruiter?! Are you serious?

I felt it was the safest red card, moreso than WGD.

Do you think that Food Chain Goblins would dominate legacy? I don't.

[kicks_422]

Well, Vial Goblins has survived so many meta shifts and is still a DTB. Wouldn't giving them access to Goblin Recruiter give them such a huge boost? In today's builds, fitting in 4 Food Chain and 4 Goblin Recruiter would be easy.

[Smmenen]

Well, Vial Goblins has survived so many meta shifts and is still a DTB. Wouldn't giving them access to Goblin Recruiter give them such a huge boost? From today's builds, fitting in 4 Food Chain and 4 Goblin Recruiter would be easy.

Goblins is definitely a deck to beat, but I don't think that Food Chain Goblins is much better -- if at all -- than Vial Goblins. Food Chain is an awkward spell alot of the time. Goblins is just fine as is.

And even if it does make Goblins better (considering Goblins has lots of problems with certain popular decks like Zoo), does anyone really believe that Goblins would dominate legacy? I mean, I could see it maybe making up 12-15% of a field, but it's hard to see how it could be much more. I dunno.

[AngryTroll]

Goblins is definitely a deck to beat, but I don't think that Food Chain Goblins is much better -- if at all -- than Vial Goblins. Food Chain is an awkward spell alot of the time. Goblins is just fine as is.

And even if it does make Goblins better (considering Goblins has lots of problems with certain popular decks like Zoo), does anyone really believe that Goblins would dominate legacy? I mean, I could see it maybe making up 12-15% of a field, but it's hard to see how it could be much more. I dunno.

I very much agree with both parts of this statement. Food Chain Goblins is not automatically better than Vial Goblins...it may be slightly better, but it won't bring back the old days, when people wanted Lackey banned because of the power, consistancy, and percentages Goblins used to have. Recruiter is the most debatable choice in the article, but not outrageous.

I felt it was the safest red card, moreso than WGD.

Is Dragon actually that big of a deal? With Pridemages, Krosan Grips, and graveyard hate everywhere, AND with Bazaar banned, it doesn't seem overpowered. It's a three card combo, Animate Dead / Necromancy are enchantments, plus you need something like Compulsion to draw cards...ending games in stalls is lame, but it's another combo like Earthcraft that won't be wrecking metagames any time soon.

[kicks_422]

You could technically just remove the "chaff" in Vial Goblins (say, 4 pieces of removal and 4 from an assortment of Piledrivers, Instigators, Chieftains, etc) to end up with Vial Goblins with a combo option. Something like:

22 lands (maybe even 4 Chrome Mox here?)
4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Recruiter
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Food Chain

Doesn't that look nice? Of course we can't say just how much power Goblins will really get from unbanning Recruiter, but I think everyone would assume that the deck would only get much better.

EDIT: Also, I think the general consensus is that Dragon without Bazaar is just plain bad.

[conboy31]

It seems Mask, Monolith, and Land Tax would be fairly innocuous. From there it gets a little trickier. I would probably just do those 3 to start with, then commence a few more for the upcoming months.

[GtF]

I actually think WGD would be a safer card to unban than recruiter. It requires more setup to be good, requires a mana sink and a way to stop the combo once it gets going (I know some cards could fulfill both roles, but most of these are not very good on their own). All in all it's a lot more disruptable than current reanimator builds, which aren't dominating the format by any means.
Other than that I think all those other cards could be safely unbanned and the only one I see having a major impact would be earthcraft, with land tax and mind twist seeing moderate play. I think grim monolith also might be safe to unban.

[jrsthethird]

Uh what's the blue card and why is no one talking about it?

[GtF]

The blue card was time spiral. I can't speak for anyone else but I wasn't talking about it because I don't think unbanning it would have much of an effect.
Part of me wants to see what would happen in a format with hermit druid legal, but the other part of me suspects that probably isn't a good idea.

[Aggro_zombies]

Goblin Recruiter would be fine, even if it is something of a scary card. The combo approach is pretty bad, and the aggro approach would be the final nail in the coffin for control decks (not that that particular coffin needs any more nails, seeing how many it's already got). Short of chaining Ringleaders, which is easily possible but very slow, it will take a while to take advantage of having put all of your guys on top. Even then, it doesn't do much to stop the current bad things for Goblins: Tabernacle/Moat, burn spells to the dome, fast starts for the opponent, combo, etc. If anything, it would make Goblins Tier 1 again, which it hasn't been in forever. I see nothing wrong with that.

Uh what's the blue card and why is no one talking about it?

Time Spiral, and because it's not that good. Mind's Desire is better for storm decks and would see very little play because of the double blue requirement.

EDIT: I think they're all fine cards to unban. Recruiter is the only one with potential to get out of hand, but Goblins lacks playable lords in the densities Elves and Merfolk have, and it's yet another deck that loses to combo.

[morgan_coke]

Having played against Elves! combo in MTGO Classic, I vote against Earthcraft. Sentinel just straight up makes that card into bad times. I'd vote no on Mask simply for clarity issues. Seriously, does anyone know how the card actually works? (not how it plays, or what it does, I mean how it works. Subtle but important difference.) Also not too keen on Recruiter, but it may be ok, then again, there are all kinds of ways to mess with it besides Food Chain. Thinking of Skirk Prospector and Goblinstorm type decks here. If you have say 3+ lands and Recruiter in your opening hand, you should be able to use Prospector and Warchief and Ringleader to draw and cast a lethal attack on t4ish (t3?) pretty consistently, with defensive bounce/chumping prior to the assault.

Mind Twist and Time Spiral seem ok, but I'd be watchful of unbanning Twist and Monolith at the same time.

[Vacrix]

I'd LOVE for recruiter to get unbanned so I can wreck havoc on them with SI. :D
Honestly though, Goblins isn't that hot anymore. I wouldn't mind seeing it take out all the CB players for me either.

Someone remind me why is Mind Twist banned. At X = 2 its just an overpriced Hymn and X > 2 you need to invest some early acceleration like multiple Dark Rituals to make it profitable. The format can handle it.

And Land Tax? It was legal in some MWS tournament on mtgsalvation and i didn't hear anything about it raping the meta. Seems safe.

Is Time Spiral that good nowadays? Combo can hit 6 pretty easily to play it. I don't think its format breaking at all but maybe some TES/NLS players can give us some thoughts on it.

EDIT:
Elves is a janky mcjankjank deck. It needs something like Earthcraft to be good.

[Master Shake]

I'm confused on why this article was even written.

But this should help everyone:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

[BreathWeapon]

Time Spiral and Land Tax have no place on the banned list when they're compared to Diminishing Returns and Life from the Loam, and honestly Mind Twist and Earth Craft are just under powered too. I don't even think these proposals for unbannings are even worth discussing, unless they unban something like Worldgorger Dragon, Grim Monolith, Mind's Desire, Illusionary Mask or Skull Clamp etc. which could either create a new archetype or improve an existing archetype it's pretty obvious what should come off safely.

I'd give Goblin Recruiter a big, fat fucking no, Goblins is fine and doesn't need the help at all - as sick as it sounds I think Skull Clamp would be the best card to shake up the format and give Counterbalance and Zoo a run for their money (it'd probably over power Goblins and Stoneforge Mystic, but at least it makes Affinity, Elves and Weenie White a contender)

[johanessen]

Earthcraft would give a HUGE boost to Enchantress, so I say NO to unban Earthcraft.

Safe unbans: Time Spiral, Land Tax, Mind Twist, Goblin Recruiter, Illusionary Mask, Mana Drain, Grim Monolith, Frantic Search. I`d like to see Skullclamp unbanned too but I think it`s too risky.

Ban: Sensei`s Divining Top.

You may noticed I mentioned Mana Drain. Seriously, who still plays Counterspell? Do you think Mana Drain is THAT dangerous? Legacy is a fast format now, unbanning Mana Drain is completely safe.